Should we separate forums into sub-forums?

[James Hart]

i never said or even inferred anything about your 6 being inferior, i implied that many of the issues and challenges that 7+ string players face are different than what 4,5 and 6 stringers face. that's not opinion, that's fact, reinforced almost daily by the folks that make it their mission in life to play 7+ string basses.

Ouch! I'm feeling you're doin it again here

My 6 string (and 5 string even) is an extended range bass

sorry if my piddly little 6 string and under mind cannot fathom the immense physical and mental feats & depths it takes to go to 7 strings and above.



Sounds like you want a little commune to free from us feable bassists.

 

[john turner]

Ouch! I'm feeling you're doin it again here

My 6 string (and 5 string even) is an extended range bass

sorry if my piddly little 6 string and under mind cannot fathom the immense physical and mental feats & depths it takes to go to 7 strings and above.



Sounds like you want a little commune to free from us feable bassists.

what are you talking about? do you have to order custom string gauges, and wait for them to be made? do you have to get special gear to handle your lowest notes? are you met with disdain and outright hostility when you open your instrument case? do you have to wait 6 months or more so that your pickups can be designed?

this is exactly what i'm talking about - these are the things that the 7+ crowd deal with regularly. i never _once_ denegrated your instrument choice, and yet you continue to read that into what i'm saying, and insulting me in the process, without even making the slightest effort to understand me and where i'm coming from. it seems to me that your thinking is that since you have a 6 string bass, which are relatively common now, somehow this qualifies you to be an expert on what folks with 7, 8, 9 and 10 string instruments have to do for their music.

you're proving my point about another forum much better than i could've. "it it's not a 6 string let'em eat cake" huh?

 

[Nick man]

Just a thought:

If this happens (which is sounds like it will) lets not call it "7+" or anything like that but rather just "ERB." Players with subrange 4 strings have a lot of the same problems as the ones you just pointed out.

 

[john turner]

Just a thought:

If this happens (which is sounds like it will) lets not call it "7+" or anything like that but rather just "ERB." Players with subrange 4 strings have a lot of the same problems as the ones you just pointed out.

sure, i don't care what it's called. i was just focusing on the 7+ crowd in my explanations because they are the ones who -usually- run into the most challenges with the logistics of what they want to do from my own experience over the past decade+. anyone who wants to play a bass that has a range of notes far outside the standard range is going to run into a lot of unforseen issues and challenges due to the industry itself - lower than low b or higher than high c is not considered marketable, even though they both have been a part of bass guitars now for quite a while.

 

[Marlat]

Perhaps some clarity should be sought at this point, exactly what is being proposed?

Will there be a whole separate category of all forums for EUB and ERB players, effectively replicating the DB and BG forums (ie amps, strings, technique, basses etc), or will there be just a single "basses" forum for these basses?

I assumed that there would be just a single "basses" forum for each of these instruments - but to add another 10-20 separate forums seems odd.

JT seems to be talking about all posts with anything related to ERB's being placed in a separate forum. That seems a little different from the way TB normally runs, in the sense that issues relating to amps, strings, technique etc, whilst different for these instruments would (IMO) be better placed in the appropriate forums that already exist for the discussion of these topics. Particularly because the knoweldge might be better shared in the existing forums.

I guess though, if a single "basses" forum existed for these instruments, then discussions about strings etc would also be off-topic and would need to be moved to?

 

[James Hart]

what are you talking about? do you have to order custom string gauges, and wait for them to be made? do you have to get special gear to handle your lowest notes? are you met with disdain and outright hostility when you open your instrument case? do you have to wait 6 months or more so that your pickups can be designed?

this is exactly what i'm talking about - these are the things that the 7+ crowd deal with regularly. i never _once_ denegrated your instrument choice, and yet you continue to read that into what i'm saying, and insulting me in the process, without even making the slightest effort to understand me and where i'm coming from. it seems to me that your thinking is that since you have a 6 string bass, which are relatively common now, somehow this qualifies you to be an expert on what folks with 7, 8, 9 and 10 string instruments have to do for their music.

you're proving my point about another forum much better than i could've. "it it's not a 6 string let'em eat cake" huh?

John, our points have been made, I respect you as a bassist and for what you are doing for the art of Electric Bass Guitar.

I, in 1984 or so, felt my 4 string bass was limited in my want to play chords. I took guitar lessons so I could teach myself how to build and play chords on bass to fill out my trios sound. By around 87 started looking to extend my range. I'd finally found a company (I was very limited in who and what I knew within the industry and had a limited budget) that would make me a 5 string with a High B (ordered late 90 delivered early 91).

I *have* ordered and waited, I've been questioned by builders as to *** I am thinking,
I *have* have to explain past the downward stares to get my strings ordered,
I *have* had bands stop dead in a song because I strummed a chord instead of thumping a root,
I *have* had musicians point and laugh at my freak basses... As recently as this summer even with my *common* 6 string. I found a bbs in Italy hot linking to files on my server.... "Beautiful Mutant" was what the subject translated to. Mostly they were just bashing me and my bass, couple open minded players dug it. "who in there right mind would play a Fretless Percision with 6 strings"

Sure *my* range has become sort of common and supplies easier to obtain.... so now I still get the "no more then 4 strings" crowd digging at me AND the 7+ crowd showing me the door because I don't have the same issues!

how dare you say I don't know what you have to deal with... I understand John. I know EXACTLY what you go through.

Thanks

 

[unregistered]

I think it could help people interested in those things get more healpful information without getting hassled..

getting hassled is sometimes helpful information

 

[unregistered]

what are you talking about? do you have to order custom string gauges, and wait for them to be made?

so why not pop over to the strings forum and say "I'm looking for a source of custom guage strings...". Doesn't even matter what kind of instrument its to go onto. It's only when you start making a point of the strings being for a seven or 9 or 12 string instrument that anybody pays attention to it.

I can never find good strings at a store anyway, and strings cost too much anyway. It's a problem for everybody. You should ask the DB guys about finding a set of Tomastiks.

do you have to get special gear to handle your lowest notes?

any synth can produce a note lower than a bass with big strings, and how many people play through octavers? This is not some unprecedented territory in amplification. It's only when you make a point of the amp being for some wild new bass that anybody pays attention.

are you met with disdain and outright hostility when you open your instrument case?

If you can play, those people will shut up in about two seconds. I never read anything from Jimmy Haslip complaining about the bullies. That's par for the course man, and in most cases I've seen, people ragging on your instrument is just a thinly veiled way of criticising your playing or your personality. I used to catch it over bringing an electric to judged jazz performances, but it was because I stank.

But you can't buy a bunch of flashy instruments and then complain that you get too much attention, negative or otherwise. That's the human condition, not the 7 string bass player condition.

do you have to wait 6 months or more so that your pickups can be designed?

no but on the other hand, how many people on TB are going out and getting custom designed sets of pickups more than about once in a lifetime. In the real world how many musicians keep ordering new instruments with new pickups from new designs over and over again? I'm not talking about celebrities, I'm talking about real world people who play for a living. Is it realistic to create some splinter forum for these kinds of corner cases?

why not just go over to the pickups forum and say "im interested in pickups with custom widths to accomodate unusual numbers of strings, etc".

It's only when you make a point out of the fact that these pickups are for your NEW, CUSTOM, 9 STRING HALF FRETTED MIDI MEGABASS that it'll attract any attention and possible negative opinion.

you're proving my point about another forum much better than i could've. "it it's not a 6 string let'em eat cake" huh?

The way to get people to accept a bass with an unusual number of strings is not to establish yourself as a special case with special protections, its to shut people up with your playing, a la Anthony Jackson. Nobody derides Anthony Jackson for anything (well except maybe his solo playing sometimes) because he is a bad, bad, bad man.

 

[bluemonk]

I think this reply is what I would want to put as well and I think it clearly makes the Poll INVALID !!

So - I think the debate/discussion is useful - but I don't think the poll means anything, as it is doesn't have the necessary options.

So there may be many people who feel like Defeldus and myself, that EUBs deserve a subdivision but not ERBs - we cannot put a valid vote in the poll therefore!!

I voted no, but agree with this view. I have an EUB that I'm starting to get into, and I'd love to be able to go to a forum that focuses on it. Also, people are able to post on the extended range basses in the electric bass forum without anyone hassling them. But posting about EUB's in DB is like painting a target on your belly, and the EUB really is a different cat than a "slab" bass.

 

[bluemonk]

I'd add, though, that i'm not talking about a whole new segment, like there'd be DB and BG and EUB with EUB amps, strings, etc. I just think there should be EUB as a category under either BG or DB. Maybe "Basses" could be changed to "Bass guitars" with EUB as the next category before amps, strings, etc.

 

[unregistered]

I'd add, though, that i'm not talking about a whole new segment, like there'd be DB and BG and EUB with EUB amps, strings, etc. I just think there should be EUB as a category under either BG or DB. Maybe "Basses" could be changed to "Bass guitars" with EUB as the next category before amps, strings, etc.

why not just put a category under DB which is "EUB". Then you have a category for questions that are specific to either type of instrument, like "is the Wanko EUB built well", etc. but everything else should pretty much be the same.

Then unless up person draws attention to themself by, say, going into the DB technique forum and say "so I'm playing my electric upright and blah blah...", the answers should be the same as far as technique, recordings, etc.


EDIT - duh bluemonk i think i just repeated what you said

 

[cgworkman]

I just click "quick links" then "new posts" - I don't care much of what "category" a post falls into. I join in on a thread regardless of the grouping, etc. as long as it's a good and worthwhile thread. Change what you like. Most people won't even notice a difference.

I couldn't tell you what "category" this thread falls into either...

 

[Ed Fuqua]

JT - my memory of our exchange was that I only waded in when you had posted something to the effect of "my ERB has 563,275 notes on it." My response was "Funny, mine only has 12."


BRUISED, NIKK, et al - hmmm. I don't disagree with the fundamental assertion that the EUB is a different instrument from the DB. My best recollection is that most posts come down to the following:
I want to play DB, is the EUB a good transition instrument?
I would say that the input of people who actually play DB would be invaluable in answering this question.
I want to play EUB, what's a good one? There you go. Personally, I've only chimed in when somebody has asked specifically about an EUB that I have played. And answered that question from the POV of somebody who plays DB, not EUB. But given that, if somebody wants info on BASS X and I played BASS X, then I would hav eto assume that the input had some value.
I play DB, I'm looking for an EUB that sounds as plays as close to a DB as possible cause I've got to fly a lot. Again, it would seem that the best answer for this particualr question is going to come from somebody who at least has played an actual DB. Someone (such as yourself BRUISED) who has only played electric and EUB doesn't have the wherewithal to speak specifically to the question of "sounds and plays close". Which doesn't (as in my above case) mean you can't offer an opinion.

As do many others, I search by NEW POSTS, so merely creating a new forum doesn't mean you're going to keep dissent out.

 

[john turner]

JT - my memory of our exchange was that I only waded in when you had posted something to the effect of "my ERB has 563,275 notes on it." My response was "Funny, mine only has 12."

heh. isn't there something about enharmonics though? you know, the whole "Ab isn't the same as g#" or something?

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Someone (such as yourself BRUISED) who has only played electric and EUB doesn't have the wherewithal to speak specifically to the question of "sounds and plays close". Which doesn't (as in my above case) mean you can't offer an opinion.

I think this is the kind of thing with which I have a problem - why does anybody need to actually play a DB to know what one sounds like?

So - as you say, I have never played a DB full-time - but every Friday I go to my local Jazz club and sit a few feet away from different great Jazz DB players; as often as I can I go to orchestral concerts in London with the world's great players - a few weeks ago I sat just in front of Eberhard Weber playing with Jan Garbarek etc. etc.

So - hey I think I know what a DB and an EUB sound like!!




But seriously - that's a big part of why I want an EUB forum - people see my avatar and PM me with questions and I am by no means, the best person to ask and it would be far better for these questions to be "opened out" to everybody in a forum - but clearly, people feel they have nowhere to post these questions...

 

[john turner]

John, our points have been made, I respect you as a bassist and for what you are doing for the art of Electric Bass Guitar.

I, in 1984 or so, felt my 4 string bass was limited in my want to play chords. I took guitar lessons so I could teach myself how to build and play chords on bass to fill out my trios sound. By around 87 started looking to extend my range. I'd finally found a company (I was very limited in who and what I knew within the industry and had a limited budget) that would make me a 5 string with a High B (ordered late 90 delivered early 91).

I *have* ordered and waited, I've been questioned by builders as to *** I am thinking,
I *have* have to explain past the downward stares to get my strings ordered,
I *have* had bands stop dead in a song because I strummed a chord instead of thumping a root,
I *have* had musicians point and laugh at my freak basses... As recently as this summer even with my *common* 6 string. I found a bbs in Italy hot linking to files on my server.... "Beautiful Mutant" was what the subject translated to. Mostly they were just bashing me and my bass, couple open minded players dug it. "who in there right mind would play a Fretless Percision with 6 strings"

Sure *my* range has become sort of common and supplies easier to obtain.... so now I still get the "no more then 4 strings" crowd digging at me AND the 7+ crowd showing me the door because I don't have the same issues!

how dare you say I don't know what you have to deal with... I understand John. I know EXACTLY what you go through.

Thanks

hmmm. i think i recognize the root of the issue here, where there's confusion as far as our communication has been going.

nobody is going to be "prohibited" from participating in the extended range bass forum, however it's set up. folks with topical material to share, regardless of instrumental configuration, are going to be as welcome as they are in any other forum here at talkbass. nobody is showing anyone the door, or advocating it at all.

does this clarify things a bit? the main purpose a seperate forum is going to serve is a forum for folks with erb-related questions and information to share to do so in an environment where the usual playful banter/hassling is not only disrespectful but also off topic. here, think of it as the kiddie pool heh.

 

[john turner]

getting hassled is sometimes helpful information

not at a forum where respect for all members is rule #1.

 

[john turner]

so why not pop over to the strings forum and say "I'm looking for a source of custom guage strings...". Doesn't even matter what kind of instrument its to go onto. It's only when you start making a point of the strings being for a seven or 9 or 12 string instrument that anybody pays attention to it.

I can never find good strings at a store anyway, and strings cost too much anyway. It's a problem for everybody. You should ask the DB guys about finding a set of Tomastiks.



any synth can produce a note lower than a bass with big strings, and how many people play through octavers? This is not some unprecedented territory in amplification. It's only when you make a point of the amp being for some wild new bass that anybody pays attention.



If you can play, those people will shut up in about two seconds. I never read anything from Jimmy Haslip complaining about the bullies. That's par for the course man, and in most cases I've seen, people ragging on your instrument is just a thinly veiled way of criticising your playing or your personality. I used to catch it over bringing an electric to judged jazz performances, but it was because I stank.

But you can't buy a bunch of flashy instruments and then complain that you get too much attention, negative or otherwise. That's the human condition, not the 7 string bass player condition.



no but on the other hand, how many people on TB are going out and getting custom designed sets of pickups more than about once in a lifetime. In the real world how many musicians keep ordering new instruments with new pickups from new designs over and over again? I'm not talking about celebrities, I'm talking about real world people who play for a living. Is it realistic to create some splinter forum for these kinds of corner cases?

why not just go over to the pickups forum and say "im interested in pickups with custom widths to accomodate unusual numbers of strings, etc".

It's only when you make a point out of the fact that these pickups are for your NEW, CUSTOM, 9 STRING HALF FRETTED MIDI MEGABASS that it'll attract any attention and possible negative opinion.



The way to get people to accept a bass with an unusual number of strings is not to establish yourself as a special case with special protections, its to shut people up with your playing, a la Anthony Jackson. Nobody derides Anthony Jackson for anything (well except maybe his solo playing sometimes) because he is a bad, bad, bad man.

wow, why didn't i think of all that? jeeze, 11 years later, and 5 years here at talkbass and i just never even thought of any of this. i'm sure all the other erb-ers that have been dealing with these same issues all breathe a collective sigh of relief at your incontrivertable wisdom .

thanks for sharing, man!

 

[cgworkman]

not at a forum where respect for all members is rule #1.

Since when?!?

 

[James Hart]

hmmm. i think i recognize the root of the issue here, where there's confusion as far as our communication has been going.

nobody is going to be "prohibited" from participating in the extended range bass forum, however it's set up. folks with topical material to share, regardless of instrumental configuration, are going to be as welcome as they are in any other forum here at talkbass. nobody is showing anyone the door, or advocating it at all.

This is what set me off John...

it seems to me that your thinking is that since you have a 6 string bass, which are relatively common now, somehow this qualifies you to be an expert on what folks with 7, 8, 9 and 10 string instruments have to do for their music.

you're proving my point about another forum much better than i could've. "it it's not a 6 string let'em eat cake" huh?

but whatever, I'd still love to buy you a coffee and jam sometime (not that I could keep up )

does this clarify things a bit? the main purpose a seperate forum is going to serve is a forum for folks with erb-related questions and information to share to do so in an environment where the usual playful banter/hassling is not only disrespectful but also off topic. here, think of it as the kiddie pool heh.

Once again, "playful banter/hassling" shouldn't be tolerated on any forum "where respect for all members is rule #1".

IMHO it all sounds like "we play 7+ strings, let'em eat cake"

but in the end.... I surf via "get new" so it's all just one big forum to me