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Should we separate forums into sub-forums?
- Thread starter Marlat
- Start date
James Hart said:
I think the poll was clearly invalid, as several of us have pointed out that if you want one, but not another then you have no suitable option - but I think Paul is saying and I agree, that debate and discussion is useful.
Bruce Lindfield said:
I was commenting the fact there are more *yes* votes in this pole then members of Talkbass
My opinion is....
the extended range basses are just that ... extended ranged basses.
your Electric Upright Bass is also what it is, an electric upright bass.
Instead of Segregation, how about policing tolerance. It's part of the basic rules of this forum. If a user speaks derogatory against a type of bass... it needs to be reported, if the mods are not culling the hate, then Paul needs emailing.
Bruce Lindfield said:........
So - even if you search - there are lots of different terms - like "stick bass", Electric Upright, EUB, Baby Bass, Electric Double Bass, NS Bass, Bassix, Eminence - each of these have been referred to in thread titles and are about EUBs - but there is no way to group them all together!!
This has been the main motivation behind my support of these sub-forums. An EUB player visiting TalkBass will only be successful in retrieving a fraction of the threads regarding EUB's via search. Also the uniqueness of the EUB calls for a subforum IMO.
i think if we're going to make sub forums for one thing we should do it for the rest too. such as in amps we could have a seperate forum for combo amps, rigs, etc. bassists and recordings could be divided by genres, etc. i persoanlly am happy with things as they are now (aside from the already pointed out fact that eubs dont really have a home). but as always, change can be a good thing and freshness is cool. 
James Hart said:
But the point is there is no specific forum for EUBs and they get lost amongst the masses of posts in BG Basses - so there are a few recent threads there , but they drop off the main pages very qucikly and are swamped. There are a few threads in DB - but again no consistent thread naming....
So - where do you look for answers to questions about EUBs - could be anywhere!!
As I said - there are threads about stick basses, EUBs, Electric Double Basses etc. etc. - as well as the plethora of brand names - which all have useful info - but there is no one way to search or look for them!
People PM me and I try to answer their questions, but it would be much better if all those who have experience of EUBs could go to one forum and pool their knowledge....
Searching is something I do take for granted... I forget that simple queries seem to stump some folks.
I *still* think Extended Range Basses are just basses... I play 4, 5, and 6 string basses and don't see the need to seperate.
but I conceed... the electric upright is unique enough to warrant it's own section.
I *still* think Extended Range Basses are just basses... I play 4, 5, and 6 string basses and don't see the need to seperate.
but I conceed... the electric upright is unique enough to warrant it's own section.
I don't think that the forums should be divided up into sub forums. Personally I like having everything in one (Basses, for example), if it was in sub forums for 4-6 strings, 7+ (extended range), fretless, or whatever else, the only positive I could see from it is having newer threads stay at the top because there wouldn't be so many because topics will be divided.
i think if we're going to divide it it needs to be thorough, with no one instrument type getting special treatment (erbs for example). i say we have a forum for "regular" basses (4-6 strings fretted), a forum for fretless, a forum for ABGs, EUBs, ERBs, etc. i also dont see why there is a seperate off topic for DB and BG, i think it would make sense to consolidate those two considering theyre the same thing, threads not dealing with music.
This has been brought up before in another Suggestion Thread. As mentioned in that thread:DEFELDUS said:
Matt Till said:
I can see the merit behind setting up a forum for EUB's, although I question whether the number of actual posts / questions would justify another forum. It might be as empty as the DB Off Topic Forum 
Seriously though, I agree with James - effective policing of the "bashing" is the key, not separation. Ultimately people will make comments in whatever forum they find the posts if they are inclined to do so. Education (perhaps through banning) is preferable to creating further divides in these forums IMO. I think the EUB issue could be dealt with effectively by Renaming the DB Basses forum to DB and EUB basses (or something similar). THat way, users know where to go when posting a new question or searching for information. If any of the DB guys bash EUB's, they should be dealt with by the moderators (as people who bash ERBs are now in the BG forum).
I think the biggest issues with separation is that firstly it creates "clubs" or "cliques" which can even more intimdating for new users than the larger more open forums. Just look at some of the reluctance of "noobs" to post in the DB forums if you want evidence of this. But, more importantly, it segragates some great knowledge into these sub-forums and often deprives the general population of that knoweldge.
For example, a lot of the best knoweldge on theory on the sight is in the heads of the DB guys, but the reluctance of the BG guys to post questions in the DB THeory forum means this great volume of knoweldge doesnt get used by a lot who could benefit most by it. Likewise, ERB players are often at a greater level of knoweldge and understanding of the bass as an instrument than your average noob. However chances are a noob will post in BG and not ERB forums, thus depriving him or her to the chance to benefit from the knoweldge and experience.
To say that topics are "not relevant" for the BG forum, for example, is a bit of a straw man argument given that so many posts in every forum are not relevant to every single user in the forum concerned. Ie is a question about tube amps relevant to those users who have never owned a tube amp? Or a question about fretless relevant to the users who have never played fretless?
Anyway...food for thought.
Seriously though, I agree with James - effective policing of the "bashing" is the key, not separation. Ultimately people will make comments in whatever forum they find the posts if they are inclined to do so. Education (perhaps through banning) is preferable to creating further divides in these forums IMO. I think the EUB issue could be dealt with effectively by Renaming the DB Basses forum to DB and EUB basses (or something similar). THat way, users know where to go when posting a new question or searching for information. If any of the DB guys bash EUB's, they should be dealt with by the moderators (as people who bash ERBs are now in the BG forum).
I think the biggest issues with separation is that firstly it creates "clubs" or "cliques" which can even more intimdating for new users than the larger more open forums. Just look at some of the reluctance of "noobs" to post in the DB forums if you want evidence of this. But, more importantly, it segragates some great knowledge into these sub-forums and often deprives the general population of that knoweldge.
For example, a lot of the best knoweldge on theory on the sight is in the heads of the DB guys, but the reluctance of the BG guys to post questions in the DB THeory forum means this great volume of knoweldge doesnt get used by a lot who could benefit most by it. Likewise, ERB players are often at a greater level of knoweldge and understanding of the bass as an instrument than your average noob. However chances are a noob will post in BG and not ERB forums, thus depriving him or her to the chance to benefit from the knoweldge and experience.
To say that topics are "not relevant" for the BG forum, for example, is a bit of a straw man argument given that so many posts in every forum are not relevant to every single user in the forum concerned. Ie is a question about tube amps relevant to those users who have never owned a tube amp? Or a question about fretless relevant to the users who have never played fretless?
Anyway...food for thought.
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
unfortunately, instead of a lot of erb folks "bearing with" the intolerance in order to share their knowledge, they just don't participate here. there are quite a few knowledgable folks who don't have any hope for talkbass whatsoever because of the crap thrown their way while they were here, crap that was tolerated in the standard forums because it was viewed as "different opinions" by more convential bassists that had little if anything to do with the topic being discussed. an ERB only forum would make those "differing opinions" by their nature off topic, and thus not even valid, just as opinions about electric bass playing are not valid in the double bass forum.
in 5 years participating here, and 11 years playing erb's, i can say right now that maintaining an environment free from insults and instrument-related bigotry is a losing battle without some slight precautions taken. double bassists have their own forum here, and they thrive because of it. using your logic, mark, they should just join the rest of us and bear with the intolerance and idiocy in order to share what they have to share on the majority's terms. isn't it ironic that no other bass guitar forum has any kind of large double bassist presence and participation like we do here? i think there's a reason for that.
when i think of "uniting the low end since 1998" i think of all the changes and growth that have happened at the site already through the past 5 years that i've participated here to cater to the different and growing needs of the user base. i think forcing people to endure bigotry in order to participate on the forum is not uniting.
i think it's ironic that a large majority of the naysayers towards the "erb forum" are not even in the constituency it is geared towards serving. all the erb'er's that i've talked to who find talkbass inhospitable at the moment felt that such an addition would be very welcome, and would bring them back around here.
ultimately the point needs to be made that this site is not serving a substantial segment of the bass playing population as well as it could. i think that the majority of non-erb playing musicians need to remember that, and also remember that a large percentage of that population does not feel welcome here.
i really don't see why non erb-players even care? it's going to have no impact on their talkbass participation, and it will help bring more members to the site. i can't help but think this is the casual argument-fest du jour, which i find tragic, and harmful to the site, and in the process, the worst example of "clique-ish" behaviour.
in 5 years participating here, and 11 years playing erb's, i can say right now that maintaining an environment free from insults and instrument-related bigotry is a losing battle without some slight precautions taken. double bassists have their own forum here, and they thrive because of it. using your logic, mark, they should just join the rest of us and bear with the intolerance and idiocy in order to share what they have to share on the majority's terms. isn't it ironic that no other bass guitar forum has any kind of large double bassist presence and participation like we do here? i think there's a reason for that.
when i think of "uniting the low end since 1998" i think of all the changes and growth that have happened at the site already through the past 5 years that i've participated here to cater to the different and growing needs of the user base. i think forcing people to endure bigotry in order to participate on the forum is not uniting.
i think it's ironic that a large majority of the naysayers towards the "erb forum" are not even in the constituency it is geared towards serving. all the erb'er's that i've talked to who find talkbass inhospitable at the moment felt that such an addition would be very welcome, and would bring them back around here.
ultimately the point needs to be made that this site is not serving a substantial segment of the bass playing population as well as it could. i think that the majority of non-erb playing musicians need to remember that, and also remember that a large percentage of that population does not feel welcome here.
i really don't see why non erb-players even care? it's going to have no impact on their talkbass participation, and it will help bring more members to the site. i can't help but think this is the casual argument-fest du jour, which i find tragic, and harmful to the site, and in the process, the worst example of "clique-ish" behaviour.
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
Mark Latimour said:
another thing, the precedent has already been set for cliquish environment with the supporting membership benefits. someone with an avatar is going to be perceived differently than someone without.
the tenor of the db forums is set by it's participants, as it should be. if they wish "noobs" to be somewhat reluctant to post, to perhaps be sure of their questions before they post them, or to have made a search of the discussions already posted, that's their prerogative, and between them, their mods, and paul, and not our place, as non-participants in that forum, to criticise. to imply that these musicians should or must just participate in the standard forums to share their knowledge is doomed to fail - they would just leave. that's what happened to many of the erb'ers who've participated here in the past.
i'm sorry, but it's not my responsibility, nor those who share my instrumental tastes, to explain ourselves constantly to someone who doesn't even care about what we have to offer just to gain the simple respect that every member is supposedly guaranteed by the usage agreement. it's what i've had to do since i got here - one of my first posts was explaining my instrument choice to ed fuqua, bless his heart
. it's also not my responsibility, nor anyone else's, to endure abuse in order to share their experiences. the simple fact of the matter is that even strict enforcement is still after the fact, and regardless of what happens to the offender, the target still tends to feel unwelcome to the site. a seperate area where their concerns and interests may be discussed gives the appearance of official endorsement and enforced tolerance of their musical instrument choices from the site owners. this in turn builds a level of trust that their needs as a community will be catered to on some level, and that trolling is not an endorsed action, or percieved to be a tolerated behaviour.
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
James Hart said:
those who play 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 string basses that i've spoken with disagree with you, almost unanimously.
Ive never been so proud to play BG.John Deppel said:
ON TOPIC:
I agree with a lot of what Mark said in his last post.
I think that perhaps a big part of the problem with EUB (flaming aside) is that EUB topics are spread everywhere since its not clear where to post them. That means that the people who actually have useful EUB info dont know where to go to lend their insight and help. Perhaps renaming the DB forum to include EUB would work. Im still leaning towards dividing it, but there is so much knowlege on the subject already in the DB forum related to amplification, technique, bows, and rosin that are usique and specialized to DB and EUB that maybe it would be best to merge them with a new name.
I thing BG should stay together. There is a lot that can be achieved by integration and working to promote tollerance. I dont play anything with more than 5 strings at the momment but I love looking at and hearing about ERB. Id like to purchase a fretless 6 one day and might eventually move on to 7. If it werent for the fact that its all mixed on TB I might not have realized how common they are and what can be done with them. By seperating them we arent only going to seperate the members, but also the information. Who knows if some BG might have switched to ERB if they were more exposed to them?
Im not saying that we should force ERB to tollerate bigotry, Im saying we should force tollerance on the biggots. Lets try a two strikes policy. First thing sounding anything like a flame on ERB is noted and you are warned with a standard message and temp ban. Second and you're out. Im talking hard-core enforcement. I agree that you guys take a lot of BS and I try to help out when I can but Id hate to see you guys give up and start your own forum. There is a lot that Ive learned from you and can continue to learn if you stay here and Im sure there are other who agree.
This talk of us not being "in the constituency it is geared towards serving" is rediculous, IMO. We all gain from the ERB posts. Check out half the ERB threads and you'll notice a huge number of the contructive posts being made by 5 and under guys.
I think enforcing a hardcore two strikes policy could make that "substantial segment of the bass playing population" that is not being served shift form the helpful ERB folks to the unhelpful trolls.
I know who I want to see on the forums and who Im sick of seeing. It'll be a little more work but I think the reward will be much greater.
john turner said:
because we are all bassists.... and the same hate y'all bare is what you just slighted me with infering *my* 6 string is inferier in it's extendedness
I know a lot of players that stay away because we are all a bunch of gear snobs...
should we have a sub $600 bass forum, or is $700 the cut off...
James Hart said:
I have felt this way before.
At times I have refrained from posting about a new piece of gear I got since I know the guys with spendy gear will come down on it as being "entry level", or no good since it didn't cost me an arm and a leg.
While it may be entirely true that a Hartke HA2000 head is not the same quality as a WalterWoods or Aguilar, no one needs to make me feel bad since it doesn't fit their idea of what is "good".
-Mike
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
James Hart said:
i never said or even inferred anything about your 6 being inferior, i implied that many of the issues and challenges that 7+ string players face are different than what 4,5 and 6 stringers face. that's not opinion, that's fact, reinforced almost daily by the folks that make it their mission in life to play 7+ string basses.
as for inexpensive vs. expensive gear forums, that's not an issue for me, either way, so i'm not going to attempt to force my opinion on the issue
.
