Slam, Punch, and Heft

[bucephylus]

As most understand, different drivers require different enclosure designs. I don’t see how it is possible to observe differences, which are solely due to the driver magnetic materials.

I have cabs using drivers of both varieties. They both work for my needs.

 

[klokker]

It's interesting to test out different cabs and make the comparisons if you have the time for it. But it seems to me that to make a true test between neo and ferrite cabs you would need exactly the same cab with exactly the same speaker with different magnets only. There's just too many parameters otherwise to draw very significant conclusions, IMO.

 

[lm183902]

I recently bought a pair of Aguilar DB112s because I saw a lot of people comment that the SL112 cabs just didn't have the same power in the low end. That was enough to steer me away, but after carrying these, I might have been ok with a little less low end

 

[MCS4]

Interesting. Makes me wonder how much different stacking two of the travelers (what I do) is to running through a single 104HF. My first suspicion was that the cab dimensions were simply too small to be optimal on the travelers. I have a GC about 1 hour from me. It might be worth a trip there if they have one on the floor. Sadly, all GC seems to have any more are small combo's.

All I can tell you is that the 104HR was love-at-first-sound for me even just using one of them. I didn't add the second one until later, and for me that is more about maximizing clean headroom for loud situations (plus putting a speaker at ear level is nice) rather than it making a difference in the actual feel and sound at standard volumes.

 

[J-Bass RMR]

Do I hear a difference?
Yes.
But the differences I hear aren't related to ferrets, or any other indigenous species - it's due to advances in engineering and technology.
.
And while I'm not an expert in those subjects, I grew up with an older brother who's an acoustical engineer - so I had "developed an ear" at an early age, and an appreciation for "truly" engineered designs..

While I'd love to walk onto an (outdoor) stage with an early 70s SVT backline - I've never been happier than I am with the equipment now available - for several reasons.

 

[Hypocrite]

to be fair, they were different speaker configurations

There you go.
It's like, "hurr durr, my 500W lead sled through an 8x10 has way more punch than my dinky little 30W 10" combo, therefore Class D sucks"

 

[newfuture]

The only sonic difference I hear is in the grunting I produce when I move said cabinet

 

[MojoPin]

I'm assuming the lighter magnets just don't have the force the heavier ones do to move the speakers.

Not making assumptions my friend.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I've gone down a weird rabbit hole lately. I've been playing Neo cabs for a long time, and recently had the opportunity to play through an old (100 pound) 4x10 Peavey Ferrite TVX cabinet. To my ears the difference in punch was not minor.........it was significant. I could not believe the slam and punch this was delivering compared to my Markbass and Subway cabs (to be fair, they were different speaker configurations). IMHO it was a lot more fun to play through the old school cab. So now I'm wondering if this is something that applies to ALL Neo cabs. I'm assuming the lighter magnets just don't have the force the heavier ones do to move the speakers.

I'll be doing some A/B testing this weekend but thought I would start a poll on this to get more input. I'm talking less about sound, and more about the punch you feel coming from the cab.

So what do you say Talkbass? Is there a difference? And if so, do you think it is worth giving punch/slam up for a lighter cab?

I’ve yet to own a neo cab. I’m quite content with my Eden D series cabs. And will use them until either of us fail.

 

[Fuzzbass]

I spent my first few decades using ceramic, but have now (mostly!) transitioned to neo for weight. I heard an obvious difference in tone between the 1st gen neo speakers and ceramic. This was around 2007, I think? Main difference to my ears was that neo had a "twang" to the upper midrange -- this was true for Epifani, Bergantino, and a few other brands. However in the years since I've gone through various other neo-loaded cabinets, and they've gradually become closer to ceramic, to the point where the difference is insignificant to my ears.

 

[groovaholic]

recently had the opportunity to play through an old (100 pound) 4x10 Peavey Ferrite TVX cabinet.

As others have said, if not for the Peavey badge - the 410TX and 410TVX would have been up there with the SWR Goliath II and Eden 410XLT in the pantheon of 90's bass cabs.
Still, any 2x2 cabinet design is going to exhibit comb filtering unless the designer (or a DIY'er with too much time on their hands) does something creative to deal with it. That's why a 410 can sound awesome when you stand right in front of it, then you step over to one side or the other and it's a muddy mess.

I'm assuming the lighter magnets just don't have the force the heavier ones do

Actually, neo is a much stronger magnet than ceramic - they save weight by needing so much less magnetic material to get the same magnetic force.
As Wikipedia will tell you: a neodymium magnet has a "magnetic energy value is about 18 times greater than "ordinary" ferrite magnets by volume and 12 times by mass. "

weight and tone of a driver is independent given the same flux density.

That caveat: "given the same flux density" says a lot!

Back around 2010 I was looking to build a fEarless cabinet - but (IIRC) there was a worldwide shortage of neodymium, and the 3015LF was either unavailable or unaffordable.

I called Eminence and asked them if there was a ceramic speaker that would have compatible T/S parameters and performance to the 3015LF and they told me that what they were able to do with the 3015LF (in terms of excursion, efficiency, displacement, etc.) just wasn't possible without neodymium.

Another thought:
@Nuisance were you using your guitarist's GK 700RB with the Peavey 410 when you liked what you heard?
IMO the 700RB is a classic and a killer bass amp; my 700RB sent every challenger to the curb for 9 years.

I'd recommend minimizing your variables by trying your cabs with that GK too!
You might just find that all you need for tonal nirvana is to haul that 17# 700RB, not the 100# 410TVX...

 

[bassman4jc]

Also, weight and tone of a driver is independent given the same flux density.

Am I wrong in assuming that a "Flux Capacitor" would help in this situation?

 

[MVE]

Do I hear a difference?
Yes.
But the differences I hear aren't related to ferrets, or any other indigenous species - it's due to advances in engineering and technology.
.
And while I'm not an expert in those subjects, I grew up with an older brother who's an acoustical engineer - so I had "developed an ear" at an early age, and an appreciation for "truly" engineered designs..

While I'd love to walk onto an (outdoor) stage with an early 70s SVT backline - I've never been happier than I am with the equipment now available - for several reasons.

Actually, (fun-fact) ferrets are largely recognized to be a domesticated species, they are not typically considered “indigenous”.
However, the wild American polecat, also known as a “black-footed ferret” is indigenous and a proud member of the weasel family.
My college roommate’s stupid little ferret climbed through the port of my Fender BXR 300C and shredded the 15 speaker.
- So, in my experience, ferrets and bass cabs don’t go well together.

 

[pepj]

I prefer my ceramics. I haven't kept all of them and have a very useful Neo cab but out of all the recent sales, I sold the Neo's because I was the least impressed by them.

 

[Nuisance]

There you go.
It's like, "hurr durr, my 500W lead sled through an 8x10 has way more punch than my dinky little 30W 10" combo, therefore Class D sucks"

I don't consider two 2x10's running through the same amp to be THAT much different from a 4x10.

But thanks for the mostly worthless input.

 

[Plain Old Barry]

I find it interesting that many current Neo speakers have better electrical power handling than older examples of the same size. For a long time, many premium drivers from EV, JBL, etc... were rated for 200 watts. Gauss had some examples with higher ratings, but all of them were HEAVY with a heavy basket to support the heavy magnet. A 400 watt 10" or 12" driver was pretty rare.

Having owned all kinds of drivers in all kinds of cabinets, I'm of the opinion that most of the current lightweight "pro" stuff out there is far and away better than anything I've used in the past. To me, the lightweight NEO stuff is built with better drivers and far better engineering of the cabinet to driver matching.

Maybe Andy can illuminate on new vs. old?

 

[DuluthDank]

I'm not an expert, and I tend to defer to others who know more than me. But Jim Bergantino is one expert (as far as I know) who seems to have a different opinion than is commonly expressed among the technically savvy bunch on Talkbass. Or in the very least, he talks about this question of neo vs. ceramic differently than anyone else I've heard. In short, he suggest that the differences between technologies become apparent when they are pushed to behaving "non-linearly". According to him, this would be the case for tube vs solid state, or neo vs ceramic. But I'd listen to him say it to hear it straight from the horse's mouth:

 

[J-Bass RMR]

stupid little ferret climbed through the port of my Fender BXR 300C and shredded the 15 speaker.

 

[2saddleslab]

This 212 loaded w/ Neo's can drive nails, regardless of the amp. But especially w/ the GK.

 

[Killing Floor]

Lol no, but you’re welcome to walk down the psycho path and believe whatever you choose.
It’s no different than saying a bass built before CBS signed a contract versus the same parts and tools and employees a week after.

Nostalgia is a helluva drug.