Slam, Punch, and Heft

[Passinwind]

I see all three terms used interchangeably. It's what you feel when plucking a note, and less what you hear. All of my Neos SOUND great. But they are all vastly less fun to play because I'm not feeling them they way I'm feeling some of the old school cabs I've played recently. Last night I went to the local Music Go Round and plugged into some of the older cabs they had there, (and with exception to one), they all seemed to be punchier than the Neo's there. Again.....it's why I put the survey up. Surely other players have noticed this?

Your poll addresses sound, not feel...

But nope, there's nothing I like more about any older gear by now. But to get there I had to ditch my old basses too, FWIW.

 

[Nuisance]

Did you try the 'old school' amp of choice into a 'new school' neo cab? Did you try a Class D head into an 'old school' cabinet?

This is part of the A/B testing I'll be doing this weekend. The Peavey is at my guitar player's studio, so I'm going to schlepp my gear over there to do some A/B testing.

Unfortunately, I can only test on the gear I have (a Subway 115, a Genz Benz XB, and two Markbass 2x10's) against this guy's Peavey TVX. I'll be swapping heads in and out as well (my Mesa D800+, my Markbass LM II and his GK 700rb), more because I can than because I need to. Mostly, I want to test the cabs in the same room, as the ceiling in my studio is probably 2 feet higher than it is in his, and I'm wondering how much of an effect that might have. I also plan on heading back to the Music Go Round on Sunday afternoon to plug into a few more cabs there.

My hope is that I'll come out of this weekend knowing a little better why I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

 

[Nuisance]

View attachment 7156916

Well crap....

/endthread

 

[agedhorse]

View attachment 7156916

That’s RMS slam, not peak slam!

 

[agedhorse]

The design voicing is likely more responsible for the perception. I have designed around both driver types and have no problem achieving my tone design goals with either but when weight goals are factored in, Neo has a definite physical advantage.

Also, weight and tone of a driver is independent given the same flux density.

 

[RGerhart]

I've gone down a weird rabbit hole lately. I've been playing Neo cabs for a long time, and recently had the opportunity to play through an old (100 pound) 4x10 Peavey Ferrite TVX cabinet. To my ears the difference in punch was not minor.........it was significant. I could not believe the slam and punch this was delivering compared to my Markbass and Subway cabs (to be fair, they were different speaker configurations). IMHO it was a lot more fun to play through the old school cab. So now I'm wondering if this is something that applies to ALL Neo cabs. I'm assuming the lighter magnets just don't have the force the heavier ones do to move the speakers.

I'll be doing some A/B testing this weekend but thought I would start a poll on this to get more input. I'm talking less about sound, and more about the punch you feel coming from the cab.

So what do you say Talkbass? Is there a difference? And if so, do you think it is worth giving punch/slam up for a lighter cab?

I had a similar experience with cabs over the last five or six years. Old ceramic magnet speakers were what I used for years, switched to neos, then back to ceramic, then back to neos.

My experience? The neos sound better and perform better, but they don't have the immediate air pressure sensation when you are close to the cab that the ceramic speakers have. I'm not sure if you want to call that 'heft', 'punch', or whatever, but I think I know what you are referring to. I even did a layman sound test where I had two cabs by each other and with one amp where I would switch the speaker cable between the two and had my girlfriend listen and tell me what she thought. She liked the sound better with the neos.

There is something about the air pressure that ceramic magnets have that creates that pleasing sensation of heft, or punch. My solution was to go with neos, but use the Backbeat G2 for that pressure sensation. To me, the Backbeat works even better than a cab, since it is an immediate tactile response to your playing.

I highly recommend these to anyone, but especially IEM users.

BackBeat G2 Wearable Tactile Transducer for Bass Players

Feel every note through your body on IEM rigs and silent stages. The BackBeat G2 wearable bass shaker clips to your strap. 11 oz, $399, ships from USA.

getbackbeat.myshopify.com

 

[Carl Hillman]

Slam, Punch, and Heft​

But, what about the other important specifications, like Bulk, Meat, Blast, Crunch, Girth, Smash, Mass, Thwack, Poundage, and Drub?

 

[trevcda]

I wonder if cabinet construction has anything to do with what OP is experiencing?

 

[Nuisance]

But, what about the other important specifications, like Bulk, Meat, Blast, Crunch, Girth, Smash, Mass, Thwack, Poundage, and Drub?

That's a different survey I'm about to publish.

 

[MCS4]

I can't comment on neo speakers in any general sense, but I know that my Markbass neo 4x10s are my favorite cabs I have ever played (which includes many older-school cabs, from Ampeg fridges to all of the other typical configurations) and aren't lacking in whatever buzzwords someone might want to throw around about how bass speakers should sound.

 

[ihixulu]

If that was truly the case, I imagine neo cabs would have been dead in the water by now.

 

[MVE]

The design voicing is likely more responsible for the perception. I have designed around both driver types and have no problem achieving my tone design goals with either but when weight goals are factored in, Neo has a definite physical advantage.

Also, weight and tone of a driver is independent given the same flux density.

In terms of tone design goals, how might you as a professional define “punch”?

My limited amateur experience mixing, bumping about 6-10 db around 60hz, gives almost any program that feel.

Is this roughly accurate?

 

[Nuisance]

My solution was to go with neos, but use the Backbeat G2 for that pressure sensation.

I considered these when my last band was on IEM's.

Eight years on IEM's and I'm sure you can understand why I'm infatuated with "punch" now that I am in a new group with no IEM/direct requirements.

I will admit I hate the thought of lugging around a 80-100 pound 4x10 cabinet when I have a pair of perfectly good 30 pound 2x10 NEO's sitting in my basement. I will also admit that I have yet to try a really good 4x10 neo cab. That is absolutely next on my list.

 

[Nuisance]

I wonder if cabinet construction has anything to do with what OP is experiencing?

I wonder this too. Both of my Neo cabs (a Mesa 115 which is likely going back this weekend, and a pair of Markbass 102P's) are built with very light materials.

 

[tshapiro]

I personally notice a difference significantly. Maybe it’s the design of newer vs older cabinets. On my ferrite cabs, I have a relatively flat eq, mids dipped a bit. With all my neo cabs, I fully dump the mids, bass is raised 90%, treble 70%. These settings get me closer to the sound of my ferrite cabs. I’m not implying one is better sounding than the other, but prefer the sound of the ferrite cabs I have, but prefer the weight of my neo cabs. I have use for both.

 

[Pontiac Thrasher]

This is part of the A/B testing I'll be doing this weekend. The Peavey is at my guitar player's studio, so I'm going to schlepp my gear over there to do some A/B testing.

Unfortunately, I can only test on the gear I have (a Subway 115, a Genz Benz XB, and two Markbass 2x10's) against this guy's Peavey TVX. I'll be swapping heads in and out as well (my Mesa D800+, my Markbass LM II and his GK 700rb), more because I can than because I need to. Mostly, I want to test the cabs in the same room, as the ceiling in my studio is probably 2 feet higher than it is in his, and I'm wondering how much of an effect that might have. I also plan on heading back to the Music Go Round on Sunday afternoon to plug into a few more cabs there.

My hope is that I'll come out of this weekend knowing a little better why I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

It may broaden your perspective to focus on how much you can vary a single cabs sound by changing it's placement and surroundings.

: )

 

[Nuisance]

It may broaden your perspective to focus on how much you can vary a single cabs sound by changing it's placement and surroundings.

: )

Thank you. That's one thing I'll be focusing on when I start the testing this weekend.

 

[Nuisance]

I personally notice a difference significantly. Maybe it’s the design of newer vs older cabinets. On my ferrite cabs, I have a relatively flat eq, mids dipped a bit. With all my neo cabs, I fully dump the mids, bass is raised 90%, treble 70%. These settings get me closer to the sound of my ferrite cabs. I’m not implying one is better sounding than the other, but prefer the sound of the ferrite cabs I have, but prefer the weight of my neo cabs. I have use for both.

Agree 1000%.

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

I've gone down a weird rabbit hole lately. I've been playing Neo cabs for a long time, and recently had the opportunity to play through an old (100 pound) 4x10 Peavey Ferrite TVX cabinet. To my ears the difference in punch was not minor.........it was significant. I could not believe the slam and punch this was delivering compared to my Markbass and Subway cabs (to be fair, they were different speaker configurations). IMHO it was a lot more fun to play through the old school cab. So now I'm wondering if this is something that applies to ALL Neo cabs. I'm assuming the lighter magnets just don't have the force the heavier ones do to move the speakers.

I'll be doing some A/B testing this weekend but thought I would start a poll on this to get more input. I'm talking less about sound, and more about the punch you feel coming from the cab.

So what do you say Talkbass? Is there a difference? And if so, do you think it is worth giving punch/slam up for a lighter cab?

Whatever the sound difference is (or isn't), my backside isn't going back to gigging with heavier cabs. I'm not going to take myself out of this game of live, gigging, popular music by going back to heavier gear that gives me back issues that ironically may hamper my ability to continue to do live, gigging, popular music.

But you do you.

 

[Nuisance]

I can't comment on neo speakers in any general sense, but I know that my Markbass neo 4x10s are my favorite cabs I have ever played (which includes many older-school cabs, from Ampeg fridges to all of the other typical configurations) and aren't lacking in whatever buzzwords someone might want to throw around about how bass speakers should sound.

Interesting. Makes me wonder how much different stacking two of the travelers (what I do) is to running through a single 104HF. My first suspicion was that the cab dimensions were simply too small to be optimal on the travelers. I have a GC about 1 hour from me. It might be worth a trip there if they have one on the floor. Sadly, all GC seems to have any more are small combo's.