Slam, Punch, and Heft

[Plain Old Barry]

One thing I forgot to mention...

Anyone who's ever had a cabinet with heavy magnet drivers dropped, resulting in a shifted magnet, has yet another reason to appreciate NEO construction.

 

[Nuisance]

Another thought:
@Nuisance were you using your guitarist's GK 700RB with the Peavey 410 when you liked what you heard?
IMO the 700RB is a classic and a killer bass amp; my 700RB sent every challenger to the curb for 9 years.

I'd recommend minimizing your variables by trying your cabs with that GK too!
You might just find that all you need for tonal nirvana is to haul that 17# 700RB, not the 100# 410TVX...

Good thought. I absolutely plan on A/B'ing the amps as well.

 

[Plain Old Barry]

I don't consider two 2x10's running through the same amp to be THAT much different from a 4x10.

The stack shape can make an interesting difference.

 

[agedhorse]

I had a similar experience with cabs over the last five or six years. Old ceramic magnet speakers were what I used for years, switched to neos, then back to ceramic, then back to neos.

My experience? The neos sound better and perform better, but they don't have the immediate air pressure sensation when you are close to the cab that the ceramic speakers have. I'm not sure if you want to call that 'heft', 'punch', or whatever, but I think I know what you are referring to. I even did a layman sound test where I had two cabs by each other and with one amp where I would switch the speaker cable between the two and had my girlfriend listen and tell me what she thought. She liked the sound better with the neos.

There is something about the air pressure that ceramic magnets have that creates that pleasing sensation of heft, or punch. My solution was to go with neos, but use the Backbeat G2 for that pressure sensation. To me, the Backbeat works even better than a cab, since it is an immediate tactile response to your playing.

I highly recommend these to anyone, but especially IEM users.

BackBeat G2 Wearable Tactile Transducer for Bass Players

Feel every note through your body on IEM rigs and silent stages. The BackBeat G2 wearable bass shaker clips to your strap. 11 oz, $399, ships from USA.

getbackbeat.myshopify.com

Except that it has nothing to do with "air pressure", though the voicing differences may be what you are attributing this perception to. Even Neo drivers sound different from each other, and they can have a wide variety of voicings too.

I wonder if cabinet construction has anything to do with what OP is experiencing?

It might, but it could also be simply the designer's choice of voicing and driver/cabinet design.

In terms of tone design goals, how might you as a professional define “punch”?

My limited amateur experience mixing, bumping about 6-10 db around 60hz, gives almost any program that feel.

Is this roughly accurate?

I would place "punch" around 80-120Hz, depth and roundness fall generally below this into the 50-80hz range. Remember that increasing the 60Hz band by 6dB quadruples the power to the cabinet throughout that band.

I don't consider two 2x10's running through the same amp to be THAT much different from a 4x10.

But thanks for the mostly worthless input.

Oh no, comparing a 210 at 410 very much changes the performance and perception, including the thickness.

I find it interesting that many current Neo speakers have better electrical power handling than older examples of the same size. For a long time, many premium drivers from EV, JBL, etc... were rated for 200 watts. Gauss had some examples with higher ratings, but all of them were HEAVY with a heavy basket to support the heavy magnet. A 400 watt 10" or 12" driver was pretty rare.

Having owned all kinds of drivers in all kinds of cabinets, I'm of the opinion that most of the current lightweight "pro" stuff out there is far and away better than anything I've used in the past. To me the lightweight NEO stuff is built with better drivers and far better engineering of the cabinet to driver matching.

Maybe Andy can illuminate on new vs. old?

One thing that Neo motors has done is allowed designers to do things that we wanted to do for many years, especially regarding increased flux density without the limitations of extreme weight. Because of the location of the magnetic material within the pole piece (the most common location, just like ALNICO material), there are added benefits that don't require stray flux shorting rings, and other enhancements that are necessary on ceramic motors to extend mid frequency performance and lower distortion. The higher power handling and increases sensitivity are also beneficial.

In the pro audio world, most sub drivers on the most expensive touring subs are Neo. This is a segment of the market where cost, size and weight are almost no object... it's all about performance and low frequency extension. If ceramic drivers were better than Neo drivers for low frequency performance, then why don't we see ceramic drivers in this application?

 

[Nuisance]

Lol no, but you’re welcome to walk down the psycho path and believe whatever you choose.
It’s no different than saying a bass built before CBS signed a contract versus the same parts and tools and employees a week after.

Nostalgia is a helluva drug.

Nothing psycho about stumbling across a rig that delivered bigger sound than I've experienced in years, and wondering why.

 

[Deleted member 409896]

I don't know if this answers OP's question, as I only have combo amps, but here goes.

The combos are an SWR Workingman 15 (oldskool magnets) and a Markbass CMB 101 (neo magnets). 160W and 40W rating, respectively.

They do sound different, but nothing I can attribute to driver magnet type.

 

[Nuisance]

Oh no, comparing a 210 at 410 very much changes the performance and perception, including the thickness.

OK, but I was comparing TWO stacked 2x10's to a single 4x10. It's not an ideal comparison I know, but it is a far cry from the poster's accusation that I was comparing a 30 watt 1x10 combo to a 500 watt 8x10 stack.

 

[fretlessbass]

Your poll addresses sound, not feel...

But nope, there's nothing I like more about any older gear by now. But to get there I had to ditch my old basses

Your poll addresses sound, not feel...

But nope, there's nothing I like more about any older gear by now. But to get there I had to ditch my old

I have acquired a neo speaker recently and couldn’t say I noticed a difference from ceramic but that’s only a sample of one.
It’s possible that the first generation of neo speakers wasn’t brilliant.
I would assume that the design parameters for the drivers is different and time was needed for designers to get up to speed.

Your search is over…:

 

[DuluthDank]

Ideally the poll would have an "I don't know" option. I feel like this question is way more technical than it seems on the surface.

 

[Drredplate]

That’s RMS slam, not peak slam!

According to AI neo magnets are dangerous and you should not get closer than 3 feet. Neither should you swallow them or insert them into any part of your body.
Don’t say I didn’t warn you

 

[LiptonJigglers]

I own 4 bass cabs;
Aguilar db115 (couldn't care less about it)
Labsystems 115 (absolute keeper)
GK 212 neo (couldn't care less about it)
Markbass 152CL neo (absolute keeper)
Each gets used for different applications.
Each one is vastly different from the other.

Can these differences be attributed to the specific magnet type?

I'm more inclined to say the amp has more affect on the cab than the magnet design.
Edit*** (even after saying this, I can see a flaws in my opinion)***
At least that's the opinion I formed when searching for cabs to go with my amps. It can be a lengthy game of trial and error.

Honestly, I think there's to many variables to make a serious scientific educated comparison and decision.

So play whatever brings you joy and your comfortable, lifting and transporting.

 

[Deleted member 409896]

According to AI neo magnets are dangerous and you should not get closer than 3 feet. Neither should you swallow them or insert them into any part of your body.
Don’t say I didn’t warn you

I get fresh with myself after a few drinks, so there's no telling what will happen.

 

[Pings Bass]

... thems the sounds my back used to make schlepping giant plywood cabs loaded with heavy iron

The sound you like out of an old cab has everything to do with the cab's and speaker's voicings and little or nothing to do with what the magnets are made of

 

[Pings Bass]

Also I hear you need neodymium speakers for those new class D (digital) amps

(Ducking)

 

[Mike Caldwell]

In case anyone is wondering with all this talk of magnets. The magnet on a speaker is what the ever changing magnet field generated by the voice coil that when in the voice coil gap and driven by the voltage from the amp becomes an electro magnet and is either pushed away from or draw into the magnetic field generated by the speaker magnet.
The designed strength of the magnet and it's field can have a lot to play into the sound of the speaker. If it's really strong it would be like you pushing back away from a brick wall, that wall doesn't move, if the wall is covered in foam rubber you sink into the foam some before changing directions, a speaker cone does that 1000's of times a second.

In the days before easily produce larger permanent magnets speakers used field coil electro magnets.
JBL has differential drive speakers where two neo slugs are spaced between two voice coils wound in opposite directions where bsically half the coil is pushing away from the magnet and the other half is pulling towards the magnet. Those have higher power handeling since the voice coil area is larger, less even order mechanical distortion and lower inductance and the speaker is crazy light weight and work perfect in my stage monitors.

 

[stringthrough]

Where is the "I don't care" button?

 

[6thplanet]

The voicing of the driver and cab have everything to do with what you're hearing. Magnet material has nothing to do with it.

As I posted on your other thread, no replacement for displacement.

...also, are we comparing neo to 40oz or 60oz ceramic magnets? (jk)

 

[fdeck]

I've got a reasonable grasp of how speakers work, and have read a lot of comments that compare the tone quality of different speakers. My hunch is that two things affect punch:

1. Overall volume, which will sound more punchy but will also have more responsive feel, all other things being equal. This could be governed by sensitivity, amp power, or knob settings. It's ridiculously difficult to make all other things equal. Room acoustics will have an effect too.

2. Mid-bass at the expense of response at the lowest frequencies. This also compensates for drivers with limited excursion.

An amusing thing I've noticed is that most of the terms used to describe bass amp sound seem related to feelings of masculinity: Heft, girth, punch, slam, wham, thank-you-ma'am, roundness, and so forth.

I'm surprised nobody has begun to use the term "torque."

Marketing departments, take note.

 

[agedhorse]

I've got a reasonable grasp of how speakers work, and have read a lot of comments that compare the tone quality of different speakers. My hunch is that two things affect punch:

1. Overall volume, which will sound more punchy but will also have more responsive feel. This could be governed by sensitivity, amp power, or knob settings.

2. Mid-bass at the expense of response at the lowest frequencies.

An amusing thing I've noticed is that most of the terms used to describe bass amp sound seem related to feelings of masculinity: Heft, girth, punch, slam, wham, thank-you-ma'am, roundness, and so forth.

I'm surprised nobody has begun to use the term "torque."

I have used the terms "polite", "refined" and "articulate" at times...

 

[HolmeBass]

I voted “yes”. The neo loaded cabinets I have used are far superior to the old ferrite magnet cabinets I have used.

I don’t think that’s because of the magnets, but rather due to the fact that modern bass drivers and cabinet design are so much better. Maybe the neo magnets allow for better driver designs?

Anyway the new stuff crushes the old stuff.