Source Audio Sourcerers Society (S.A.S.S.)

[rsmith601]

I did have a bit of noise with my one spot; mainly some weird digital clicky type stuff every once in a while. Didn't have it with the wall wart that came with the pedal.

Our power supplies are transformer based and really quiet. The One Spots are "switching" supplies and less predictable in pedal board applications. They can be just fine for most people most of the time and I am sure you will hear folks say that. Switching supplies do have advantages. They weigh less, cost less, and they are smaller. The digital clicking sound was mostly likely switching noise from the power supply.

Dealing with power supplies, multiple pedals and multiple pedals on the same power supply can create noise which is complicated to understand and track down. Bongo wrote well about this once upon a time.

Analog purists may not be so pure if they are using a switching power supply............ A topic for another day!

 

[willsellout]

Yeah the noise wasn't constant or anything. It was every once in a while. When I get another MWPDP I will probably power it on it's own.

 

[rsmith601]

jeremysdemo asks:


"I would like to know what frequency the wireless Hothand is on, UHF? VHF? bluetooth?

the reason I ask is I have had bad experiences with wireless signals in small clubs were the frequencies are too close to cell phones and other wireless devices.

If it turns out this is on a shared or common band for consumer electronics I'm gonna have to go with the wired version.
which leads me to another question....how long is that hothand wire?"

The wireless is a 2.4GHz frequency hoping digital radio which always seeks out a clear channel. There is lots of spectrum up at 2.4G. It is similar to BlueTooth, but not quite the same. It works all over the world. It is really reliable. Radio band stuff (UHF/VHF is really different). Also note that the if the Hot Hand signal gets some interference, you cannot hear it or even feel it. Remember, it is a control signal, NOT your guitar signal.

The wired cord is like 15 feet.

 

[Plays_For_Dog]

Roger / Will,

When can we expect that expression pedal for sale on the market? I want one.

 

[rsmith601]

Roger / Will,

When can we expect that expression pedal for sale on the market? I want one.

We are expecting them March 7th. Suspect they will be in stores a few days later. We used they each day at NAMM. They worked great.

 

[Dazonbass]

Our power supplies are transformer based and really quiet. The One Spots are "switching" supplies and less predictable in pedal board applications. They can be just fine for most people most of the time and I am sure you will hear folks say that. Switching supplies do have advantages. They weigh less, cost less, and they are smaller. The digital clicking sound was mostly likely switching noise from the power supply.

Dealing with power supplies, multiple pedals and multiple pedals on the same power supply can create noise which is complicated to understand and track down. Bongo wrote well about this once upon a time.

Analog purists may not be so pure if they are using a switching power supply............ A topic for another day!

Just to point out that I am the person that now owns the pedal Willsellout had and I have not noticed anything. Maybe I am deaf

I have run it with both the standard adapter that came with it and also with a daisychained onespot. No problems either way, but I will chime in again if I notice anything.

Still loving both my MWBD and BEF pros, and looking forward to putting them to the test on stage tonight

 

[rsmith601]

Just to point out that I am the person that now owns the pedal Willsellout had and I have not noticed anything. Maybe I am deaf

I have run it with both the standard adapter that came with it and also with a daisychained onespot. No problems either way, but I will chime in again if I notice anything.

Still loving both my MWBD and BEF pros, and looking forward to putting them to the test on stage tonight

This is a key point: not all pedal combinations have the same noise issues, and it is not always clear which pedal is the culprit!

You and Willsellout are both right!

 

[Dazonbass]

As I said... I will chime in.

Lastnight the sound man was going crazy trying to figure out some noise we had. We couldn't track it down in time and just lived with it. I think this may have been what Willsellout was talking about. From now on I will keep my Source Audio pedals on their own power supply to be safe. The EQ and distortion are to useful to let go, so will be testing everything out riggerously in the studio to determine if there is a problem.

Electricity is complex beast and agree with the pedal combinations changing noise issues.

 

[jackwell1029384]

hey im looking at buying either the bass envelope filter of the BEF pro, and i was wondering if you guys think the price increase between the two is worth the BEF pro's added features?

 

[jackwell1029384]

im looking at buying either the bass envelope filter or the BEF pro, and i was wondering if you think the price increase is worth the added features of the BEF pro?

 

[scottfeldstein]

im looking at buying either the bass envelope filter or the BEF pro, and i was wondering if you think the price increase is worth the added features of the BEF pro?

Probably, yeah. These pedals get an incredible variety of freaky sounds. That's why we all like them, right? But how useful is that if you're limited to one sound on the footswitch? The pro makes it gigable. It makes it "professional" instead of just a fun toy for messing around. Plus, the presets make the Hot Hand controller even more useful. And yes, you should get the HH. Because how can you not?

Heck, I'm thinking I might abandon everything on my board except my compressor, tuner and DI and replace it all with the pro distortion and the pro envelope filter. I mean, what else does a guy need when they can get all those sounds plus the Hot Hand dubstep wobble?

 

[willsellout]

As I said... I will chime in.

Lastnight the sound man was going crazy trying to figure out some noise we had. We couldn't track it down in time and just lived with it. I think this may have been what Willsellout was talking about. From now on I will keep my Source Audio pedals on their own power supply to be safe. The EQ and distortion are to useful to let go, so will be testing everything out riggerously in the studio to determine if there is a problem.

Electricity is complex beast and agree with the pedal combinations changing noise issues.

The noise I had was a simple "click" every once in a while. There wasn't ever any static or anything. And it went away with the provided power supply, so I figured it was just the one spot. What kind of noise did you have?

 

[Fro 20]

The noise I had was a simple "click" every once in a while. There wasn't ever any static or anything. And it went away with the provided power supply, so I figured it was just the one spot. What kind of noise did you have?

I had that same intermittent click w/my one spot and my overdrive pedal. like once every 5 minutes or so

 

[jeremysdemo]

Heck, I'm thinking I might abandon everything on my board except my compressor, tuner and DI and replace it all with the pro distortion and the pro envelope filter. I mean, what else does a guy need when they can get all those sounds plus the Hot Hand dubstep wobble?

well since the Hot hand can output it's signal to other manufactures pedals/signals as well, what else does a guy need?

without listing all the products out there that do this already:

1.ring mod and other FX that are sync-able to midi time code and outside CV timing devices like most analog FX racks are.
2. programmable and re-callable presets via program change numbers and midi, or at the very least a numbered bank that can be paged through with a knob or pedal for storing specific settings.

Let me ask you a question when you want to use the the bass envelope filter on stage while you are playing and singing do you plan on stopping everything and bending over to adjust those little nobs with your hand in a live setting?
or are you just going to use one setting for all your songs all the time?

keep shinin

jerm

 

[jeremysdemo]

The wireless is a 2.4GHz frequency hoping digital radio which always seeks out a clear channel. There is lots of spectrum up at 2.4G. It is similar to BlueTooth, but not quite the same. It works all over the world. It is really reliable. Radio band stuff (UHF/VHF is really different). Also note that the if the Hot Hand signal gets some interference, you cannot hear it or even feel it. Remember, it is a control signal, NOT your guitar signal.

The wired cord is like 15 feet.

thanx for the open supply of info.


"2.4G It is really reliable. It works all over the world"

yeah, hence the concern, the vast use of this frequency and the sheer amount of consumer products out there that transmit on it are outstanding.
while that might not mean anything in the studio where you can control what is in your environment, going to a club, bar, or coffee shop can be problematic considering the in-house cordless phones are on 2.4g as well, and if your shop is in a row or has apartments above it you got more to worry about (wi-fi devices for example)
I doubt business are going to just stop answering their phone because you want to use an effect without interference.

Now if there was some way to isolate the frequency and set it yourself to a specific area that would be ideal, instead of it trying to find an open random digit (which might change when another device is or isn't in use) you could just set it manually once to an open area and not have to worry about it jotting around on it's own, how often is it doing that anyway? once at start up? or intermittently as needed when there is interference detected?

The current 'fastest' norm, 802.11n, uses double the radio spectrum compared to 802.11a or 802.11g. This means there can only be one 802.11n network on 2.4 GHz band without interference to other WLAN traffic.

Also note that the if the Hot Hand signal gets some interference, you cannot hear it or even feel it. Remember, it is a control signal, NOT your guitar signal.

now how would you know that honestly?

Understanding it is not audio if a signal is in the process of being transmitted and received (which is affecting audio in real time) the premature ending of that transmission due to interference will definitely effect the outcome of the sound produced, it will either end or sustain at it's last received potential or revert back to a base potential depending on how the processor is set up to default, granted if the default is to revert back to level when no signal is present the worst one might expect is a jump or premature drop in potential if the signal is interfered with.
However, if some other device is transmitting on that same frequency it can send the Hot Hand receiver all sorts of unwanted data that would be completely unpredictable as to what audio output that would create when processed.


Don't get me wrong these are some really interesting and ingenious concept devices, I'm only trying to discuss them in a positive clinical manner that may lead to their improvement.

keep shinin

jerm

 

[scottfeldstein]

well since the Hot hand can output it's signal to other manufactures pedals/signals as well, what else does a guy need?

without listing all the products out there that do this already:

1.ring mod and other FX that are sync-able to midi time code and outside CV timing devices like most analog FX racks are.
2. programmable and re-callable presets via program change numbers and midi, or at the very least a numbered bank that can be paged through with a knob or pedal for storing specific settings.

Let me ask you a question when you want to use the the bass envelope filter on stage while you are playing and singing do you plan on stopping everything and bending over to adjust those little nobs with your hand in a live setting?
or are you just going to use one setting for all your songs all the time?

keep shinin

jerm

Honestly, the only part of your remarks I understood well enough to respond to is the last bit. And the answer is, I don't intend to buy the non-pro version. Therefore, I won't have to bend over and adjust little knobs.

 

[scottfeldstein]

well since the Hot hand can output it's signal to other manufactures pedals/signals as well, what else does a guy need?

Also, this is sarcasm, right? Tell me the HH doesn't work as an expression input for other manufacturers pedals. That would be too good.

 

[CopperheadLXXIX]

Also, this is sarcasm, right? Tell me the HH doesn't work as an expression input for other manufacturers pedals. That would be too good.

It can with the SA midi-exp controller, but that pedal is being revamped I believe.

 

[Smallequestrian]

thanx for the open supply of info.


"2.4G It is really reliable. It works all over the world"

yeah, hence the concern, the vast use of this frequency and the sheer amount of consumer products out there that transmit on it are outstanding.
while that might not mean anything in the studio where you can control what is in your environment, going to a club, bar, or coffee shop can be problematic considering the in-house cordless phones are on 2.4g as well, and if your shop is in a row or has apartments above it you got more to worry about (wi-fi devices for example)
I doubt business are going to just stop answering their phone because you want to use an effect without interference.

Now if there was some way to isolate the frequency and set it yourself to a specific area that would be ideal, instead of it trying to find an open random digit (which might change when another device is or isn't in use) you could just set it manually once to an open area and not have to worry about it jotting around on it's own, how often is it doing that anyway? once at start up? or intermittently as needed when there is interference detected?

The current 'fastest' norm, 802.11n, uses double the radio spectrum compared to 802.11a or 802.11g. This means there can only be one 802.11n network on 2.4 GHz band without interference to other WLAN traffic.

When you power on the hot hand, it searches for an available frequency and it stays there. The odds of another device coming on at that exact same frequency at a club or apartment that wasn't already on are very, very minute.

The application isn't dependent on a large amount of bandwidth and there are many divisions of the 2.4ghz spectrum available. It will be very hard to disrupt the hot hand signal. Very few clubs will ever come close to having the amount of 2.4ghz bouncing around to make this an issue. Large apartment buildings might be a more likely place for interference to happen, but it would have to be a really specific set of circumstances for that to come to fruition. In big apartment building setup the general proximity of the HH to the pedal is enough to overcome most potential issues by itself.

now how would you know that honestly?

Understanding it is not audio if a signal is in the process of being transmitted and received (which is affecting audio in real time) the premature ending of that transmission due to interference will definitely effect the outcome of the sound produced, it will either end or sustain at it's last received potential or revert back to a base potential depending on how the processor is set up to default, granted if the default is to revert back to level when no signal is present the worst one might expect is a jump or premature drop in potential if the signal is interfered with.
However, if some other device is transmitting on that same frequency it can send the Hot Hand receiver all sorts of unwanted data that would be completely unpredictable as to what audio output that would create when processed.


Don't get me wrong these are some really interesting and ingenious concept devices, I'm only trying to discuss them in a positive clinical manner that may lead to their improvement.

You're talking about a very minute possibility of interference. Yes there is the possibility of the signal getting interrupted and causing a brief issue with how the pedal is processing, but your settings have saved default values that are the core of the sound, so it reverts to that. The proximity of the Hothand and pedal are usually so that their signal will win out over possible interference anyway.

I know you think you're being helpful, but they really have this well thought out and the technology has been thoroughly tested in the lab and especially on the road by now. The original Hot Hand products using this tech have been out for 6 years now.

 

[rsmith601]

thanx for the open supply of info.


yeah, hence the concern, the vast use of this frequency and the sheer amount of consumer products out there that transmit on it are outstanding.
while that might not mean anything in the studio where you can control what is in your environment, going to a club, bar, or coffee shop can be problematic considering the in-house cordless phones are on 2.4g as well, and if your shop is in a row or has apartments above it you got more to worry about (wi-fi devices for example)
I doubt business are going to just stop answering their phone because you want to use an effect without interference.

Now if there was some way to isolate the frequency and set it yourself to a specific area that would be ideal, instead of it trying to find an open random digit (which might change when another device is or isn't in use) you could just set it manually once to an open area and not have to worry about it jotting around on it's own, how often is it doing that anyway? once at start up? or intermittently as needed when there is interference detected?

The current 'fastest' norm, 802.11n, uses double the radio spectrum compared to 802.11a or 802.11g. This means there can only be one 802.11n network on 2.4 GHz band without interference to other WLAN traffic.



now how would you know that honestly?

Understanding it is not audio if a signal is in the process of being transmitted and received (which is affecting audio in real time) the premature ending of that transmission due to interference will definitely effect the outcome of the sound produced, it will either end or sustain at it's last received potential or revert back to a base potential depending on how the processor is set up to default, granted if the default is to revert back to level when no signal is present the worst one might expect is a jump or premature drop in potential if the signal is interfered with.
However, if some other device is transmitting on that same frequency it can send the Hot Hand receiver all sorts of unwanted data that would be completely unpredictable as to what audio output that would create when processed.


Don't get me wrong these are some really interesting and ingenious concept devices, I'm only trying to discuss them in a positive clinical manner that may lead to their improvement.

keep shinin

jerm

I don't mind the questions at all. As many TB folks know, we try to be quick and open about acknowleding our mistakes!!

You are right; the ISM band is really busy. You did not mention microwave ovens! But is is also really big space in the spectrum and the radios such as what we use were designed to operate in a busy environment. The tradeshow floor at NAMM is crazy busy with tens of thousands of cell phones, wireless LAN, tens of thousands of channels of bluetooth, all kinds of wireless mikes and on and on. It is hard to imagine a worse environment. We have never had a problem with having 4 (four) wireless Hot Hands in action all at one time. Herman Li has toured with Hot Hand in all kinds of venues all over the world, and there was only one place in Asia it did not work. In fact, they were having trouble with all of their wireless gear that day, most likely from some kind of illegal emission. This is the one time we know of when it did not work well. Hot Hand worked on the main stage of Bonaroo during a huge lightning storm. I would not want to turn off the frequency hoping. Channel integrity comes and goes.

Can we guarantee that it will always work flawlessly? Sadly no. Do we think we picked the most effective radio technology for Hot Hand? Absolutely.

How do I know what Hot Hand does when it loses its signal? Because we have tested it many times and you can too. Set up your rig and have someone else play. Take the ring and walk far far away and keep shaking your hand. Eventually the Hot Hand will be become more sluggish. The reason is that data packets are getting corrupted and not arriving when they should. We designed the receiver to only allow gradual changes when packets are missing. This prevents ugly surprises such as you suggested. As noted, a control signal is more forgiving than an actual audio signal.