Stoner/Doom Bassists Thread, Part 90: Maxed Out

[kleinenenten]

Welcome to the team. I'm in love with that pedal.

I can see why. It's fantastic. And affordable! Got it for $65 even. If I didn't have an HM-2 (and clones...) or B3K I don't think I'd need to pick one up now.

I need to listen to that thing. Know any good demos?

Just bass demos, no. But if you listen to Bolt Thrower's last few albums, it's pretty much her tone. She uses Peaveys, I use GK, but they're both the sonic equivalent of being hit by a bulldozer. This song always comes to mind... listen at 31 seconds in.



To be clear, there are bass demos out there. But I didn't find anything that would make sense for this usage.

 

[Novarocker]

I had a Density Hulk for a year and liked it a lot but ended up switching for a Source Audio C4. Some part of me wants to get another meatbox clone
I think that the smaller Hulk has a drawback in that the 30hz and 60hz controls are on trimpots. I was constantly adjusting the knobs on my Density Hulk to match different amps and basses.

Good to know. The smaller one was the one I was thinking of getting. I wonder if it's mostly guitarists who never mess with those two controls? Maybe modding one with those real skinny pots/knobs frequently used on mini pedals would work.

 

[br1qbat]

Finally picked up an a Ibanez PD-7 today. It’s like a B3K and HM-2 had a baby. Gets the grit of the HM-2, with the tightness of the B3K, but with more low mid punch instead of high mid clank. Thing’s a beast. And yes - it IS Jo Bench in a box. This may dethrone my HM-2s for death metal tones...

You had me at Jo Bench in a box

 

[lucas303]

I need to listen to that thing. Know any good demos?

I don't know if I'd call this "good" (certainly my playing isn't, at least) but it's a clip of my PD7: Stoner/Doom Bassists Thread, Part 90: Maxed Out

 

[Andysalt01]

Thoughts about the new Pallbearer? On first listen I'm liking it a lot. Heartless didn't do much for me...this feels like a return to the form of the first two albums, without being totally redundant.

On my first listen now. Sounding pretty good. I found heartless a grower. Had to listen a few times to 'get it'. this feels a little more foundations so far.

 

[Andysalt01]

I've had three or meatboxes over the years and a density hulk. For me the dod originals have a certain mojo to them, but the reissues feel more powerful and are way better built.
I ran it in a set up with a barefaced big twin 2 and those speakers were able to handle it and deliver massive amounts of low end. Huge. Ran early in the chain and added a bit of fuzz after to the already slightly dirty tone.
I'm running barefaced tens now so the eq curve doesn't deliver in the same way and I never bothered going direct to FOH and the music were writing at the moment doesn't need it ...... Then again....it might now I'm thinking about it again!

 

[Novarocker]

I wonder if the prominent frequencies a pickup puts out is the indicator for when speakers will cry under the meatbox? I imagine the beef from a mudbucker or pickup right at the neck will bring em to their knees. I know that's what I was using and they were hot ones too.

Once I popped the hpf before my amp it made a world of difference.

Just found out the output of the reissues is stereo so you can have a separate dry out! Dammit now I'm probably gonna have to grab another...

 

[Andysalt01]

That 30hz boost it has is the bit that messes speakers I think. Pushes them past their mechanical limit, especially at any volume.
Doesn't the pass filter then negate the point of the box if it's wiping away all the feel? That was my rationale anyway. Probably wrong

Just found out the output of the reissues is stereo so you can have a separate dry out! Dammit now I'm probably gonna have to grab another...

Yeah new ones are trs, i prefered the older which have a separate dry out which personally I thought was more useable.

 

[kleinenenten]

I wonder if the prominent frequencies a pickup puts out is the indicator for when speakers will cry under the meatbox? I imagine the beef from a mudbucker or pickup right at the neck will bring em to their knees. I know that's what I was using and they were hot ones too.

Once I popped the hpf before my amp it made a world of difference.

Just found out the output of the reissues is stereo so you can have a separate dry out! Dammit now I'm probably gonna have to grab another...

HPF completely before the amp? I use mine in the FX loop. I've never had a Meatbox, though.

 

[thetragichero]

high pass filter before the amp will give you more apparent volume/headroom because it's not wasting power trying to amplify frequencies it (and the cab) are not capable of

 

[Flamingo21]

high pass filter before the amp will give you more apparent volume/headroom because it's not wasting power trying to amplify frequencies it (and the cab) are not capable of

Spot on.

 

[kleinenenten]

high pass filter before the amp will give you more apparent volume/headroom because it's not wasting power trying to amplify frequencies it (and the cab) are not capable of

Right - but mine's in the loop - before the power amp, and for this exact reason. Wouldn't that clean up anything from the entirety of whatever is before it, like the pedals and the preamp? That was my thought. I guess I'm really asking what's the difference between before the amp entirely or in the FX loop (between the amp's pre and power amps)?

 

[YawningJorin]

Right - but mine's in the loop - before the power amp, and for this exact reason. Wouldn't that clean up anything from the entirety of whatever is before it, like the pedals and the preamp? That was my thought. I guess I'm really asking what's the difference between before the amp entirely or in the FX loop (between the amp's pre and power amps)?

That is exactly how it should work. Usual route is instrument in -> pre-amp -> send/return -> power amp -> cab. So if you place anything before the input, it will be before the built in pre-amp. If you place it in the send/return loop, it will be after the pre-amp just before the power amp. Some people like to run two separate pedalboard patches, one before the instrument input and one in the loop. This lets you put effects both before and after the pre-amp. You might want to run e.g. compressor before, but reverb in the loop because you like the response of the comp better when operating on instrument level, but you don't want the reverb to get the bass boost you're putting in the pre-amp's EQ. In the case of the filter, if you run it before the EQ you might find that it's boosting some lows that you are trying to cut and the two end up fighting each other. Running it after the pre will instead allow you to use the EQ more for tone shaping, and then subtracting lows that you don't want without the EQ fighting against it.

 

[kleinenenten]

That is exactly how it should work. Usual route is instrument in -> pre-amp -> send/return -> power amp -> cab. So if you place anything before the input, it will be before the built in pre-amp. If you place it in the send/return loop, it will be after the pre-amp just before the power amp. Some people like to run two separate pedalboard patches, one before the instrument input and one in the loop. This lets you put effects both before and after the pre-amp. You might want to run e.g. compressor before, but reverb in the loop because you like the response of the comp better when operating on instrument level, but you don't want the reverb to get the bass boost you're putting in the pre-amp's EQ. In the case of the filter, if you run it before the EQ you might find that it's boosting some lows that you are trying to cut and the two end up fighting each other. Running it after the pre will instead allow you to use the EQ more for tone shaping, and then subtracting lows that you don't want without the EQ fighting against it.

Ok, yes, that’s what I had thought. I actually do run something like this, but with only “utility” pedals in the loop. Currently, it goes gate to HPF to DI/Cabsim. Might put my delay back after the gate to make sure it doesn't’ get cut off.

 

[Novarocker]

That 30hz boost it has is the bit that messes speakers I think. Pushes them past their mechanical limit, especially at any volume.
Doesn't the pass filter then negate the point of the box if it's wiping away all the feel? That was my rationale anyway. Probably wrong


Yeah new ones are trs, i prefered the older which have a separate dry out which personally I thought was more useable.

Yeah totally separate would be nice, but I have a splitter that should work fine. The HPF doesn't negate it since some still comes out. What does end up happening is the harmonics of those octaves trick your mind into hearing the subs. Very odd, but that's what I've read in numerous places. I don't know the science behind the mind trick, but it's there. I think the feel would still be there, I can't remember right now, but the notes and beefy tone are still there with my bass, it's just tighter with more clarity and less room rumbling.

Right - but mine's in the loop - before the power amp, and for this exact reason. Wouldn't that clean up anything from the entirety of whatever is before it, like the pedals and the preamp? That was my thought. I guess I'm really asking what's the difference between before the amp entirely or in the FX loop (between the amp's pre and power amps)?

Never thought to try it in the loop, but oddly enough if you have an hpf before the preamp, but then boost the lows on the amp, you get very present bass with lots of clarity and beef but little mud. You can still get some mud/rumble if you want.

I think what happens is you're eliminating the very low, lows because of the -12(or more)db/octave, but then boosting the freq point of the low on the amp only. That way you get the low mid and mid harmonics from the low notes, along with the lows from the amps low freq eq point, but none of the muddy really low frequencies. That's my understanding of it at least. I think it's basically giving you a tighter focus on the lows essentially. It sounds surprisingly good. I imagine the effect to be similar to a band pass filter like a wah, but on the lows.

 

[kleinenenten]

Yeah totally separate would be nice, but I have a splitter that should work fine. The HPF doesn't negate it since some still comes out. What does end up happening is the harmonics of those octaves trick your mind into hearing the subs. Very odd, but that's what I've read in numerous places. I don't know the science behind the mind trick, but it's there. I think the feel would still be there, I can't remember right now, but the notes and beefy tone are still there with my bass, it's just tighter with more clarity and less room rumbling.



Never thought to try it in the loop, but oddly enough if you have an hpf before the preamp, but then boost the lows on the amp, you get very present bass with lots of clarity and beef but little mud. You can still get some mud/rumble if you want.

I think what happens is you're eliminating the very low, lows because of the -12(or more)db/octave, but then boosting the freq point of the low on the amp only. That way you get the low mid and mid harmonics from the low notes, along with the lows from the amps low freq eq point, but none of the muddy really low frequencies. That's my understanding of it at least. I think it's basically giving you a tighter focus on the lows essentially. It sounds surprisingly good. I imagine the effect to be similar to a band pass filter like a wah, but on the lows.

My FDeck HPF 3 is calibrated for about 35hz at the lowest. I currently run it somewhere between 45 and 50hz (total guess on the knob) and hear no difference tonally when it is either in or out of the chain. I know that my low B is about 31hz, but like you, have read all sorts of stuff about how the brain perceives the notes. My understanding is pretty much like yours. Basically, the brain can't "hear" all those lows, but fills in the gaps somehow. According to the manual, my 700RB-II's bass knob is centered at 60hz, so I'm not cutting anything that my amp can add in easily, and those very low notes only muddy the sound. My biggest thought for the HPF was to clean up the super low stuff that amps struggle to reproduce, which essentially gives them more clean headroom (which I can then use to crank more dirt pedals...). It also helps with cone excursion/speaker damage. I can tell you that I noticed a huge difference in cone excursion when I put this in my chain. So I don't worry about blowing my cab with lows, at least.

 

[YawningJorin]

I know that my low B is about 31hz, but like you, have read all sorts of stuff about how the brain perceives the notes. My understanding is pretty much like yours. Basically, the brain can't "hear" all those lows, but fills in the gaps somehow.

You can hear down to 20-15hz or so. Bear in mind that it looks like a small gap but 30Hz is a full octave up from 15Hz. It's somewhere around there that you start perceiving it more as a rumbling vibration than as pitch. There's no hard line, of course, but even in E tuning the fundamental frequency is in the sub bass range. What gives the sound definition is the overtones and these are what you really hear instead of feel. The likely issue with low tuning is not that of human hearing, but of speakers. Your speaker likely doesn't reproduce deep sub bass well, which is a big reason you want a high pass before the power amp. You're just sinking all that power into amplifying frequencies that physically cannot be heard through your speaker. If you want to experiment with what's audible to you, grab a good pair of headphones and create a sine wave sweep in audacity going upwards from 10hz. You can feel the shift between feeling and hearing. It is very cool and very informative.

 

[lucas303]

My FDeck HPF 3 is calibrated for about 35hz at the lowest. I currently run it somewhere between 45 and 50hz (total guess on the knob) and hear no difference tonally when it is either in or out of the chain. I know that my low B is about 31hz, but like you, have read all sorts of stuff about how the brain perceives the notes. My understanding is pretty much like yours. Basically, the brain can't "hear" all those lows, but fills in the gaps somehow. According to the manual, my 700RB-II's bass knob is centered at 60hz, so I'm not cutting anything that my amp can add in easily, and those very low notes only muddy the sound. My biggest thought for the HPF was to clean up the super low stuff that amps struggle to reproduce, which essentially gives them more clean headroom (which I can then use to crank more dirt pedals...). It also helps with cone excursion/speaker damage. I can tell you that I noticed a huge difference in cone excursion when I put this in my chain. So I don't worry about blowing my cab with lows, at least.

It is virtually certain that your 700RB has its own built in HPF which might be why you're not hearing a difference with or without the HPF pedal. I could share a quote from an email conversation with GK tech support where they said that they, like any competent amp designer (paraphrasing), build a HPF into the guts of the amp.

 

[kleinenenten]

It is virtually certain that your 700RB has its own built in HPF which might be why you're not hearing a difference with or without the HPF pedal. I could share a quote from an email conversation with GK tech support where they said that they, like any competent amp designer (paraphrasing), build a HPF into the guts of the amp.

I am also certain that it does. I am just as certain that my speakers don't move anywhere near as much as they used to and that I get more clean headroom using an external HPF. Is it absolutely necessary? Probably not. But for the small investment of the HPF, I can feel much safer that I'm not going to blow speakers and have to replace components, which are all more costly than the HPF was. It's worth it for me, at least.

 

[kleinenenten]

You can hear down to 20-15hz or so. Bear in mind that it looks like a small gap but 30Hz is a full octave up from 15Hz. It's somewhere around there that you start perceiving it more as a rumbling vibration than as pitch. There's no hard line, of course, but even in E tuning the fundamental frequency is in the sub bass range. What gives the sound definition is the overtones and these are what you really hear instead of feel. The likely issue with low tuning is not that of human hearing, but of speakers. Your speaker likely doesn't reproduce deep sub bass well, which is a big reason you want a high pass before the power amp. You're just sinking all that power into amplifying frequencies that physically cannot be heard through your speaker. If you want to experiment with what's audible to you, grab a good pair of headphones and create a sine wave sweep in audacity going upwards from 10hz. You can feel the shift between feeling and hearing. It is very cool and very informative.

Yeah. What you said! My point being that my lowest note (low B) is at the frequency of 31hz, if memory serves. That's what my cab cab (safely, I know it's not a hard cut off) produce according to its specs. So I don't want to damage that, regardless if I can hear it.