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Stoner/Doom Bassists Thread Part Ten - What is this thread about again?

The other issue is paying in full for something off the bat. I can totally agree with asking for a deposit to start a project (to cover material cost and if the person backs out) but the full payment up front and the undefined wait is what bothers me. As a contractor I'll ask for a deposit (usually 1/3 of the contract) to cover materials and some expenses. Then only once I'm completed with the job do I invoice for the balance. Things happen in life and work and sometimes deadlines aren't met, but people usually feel better if they owe YOU money as opposed to you owing THEM a product they already paid for. This is just my opinion with this.

I totally agree, and if they pay a 1/3 deposit for materials, and you build the product but then they back out, you resell the product to someone else, and just made 133% what you would have originally. Most companies LOVE when people back out of their orders after paying a deposit, its like free money.
 
Must be a good one. It's even blocked at work. :smug:

Has anyone else noticed the hate for Bass Big Muff? I just saw someone post about how it's garbage. I disengaged my DI, and it does sound pretty raspy and not big and bassy at all. Does my DI shape my tone that much? Now I am thinking about starting to replace the "budget gear" stuff, the Behringer is on the short list. Why would a DI make my BBM sound so much better? And would all DI's accomplish this? Anyone else notice this or am I crazy. Eventually I want a sturdier DI and a custom Fuzz of some sort. Thinking of the MXR M80.

What DI do you have?
 
Of course thats true. But Wade was a self-professed one man operation, no?

You guys are (maybe?) older and more life-experienced than me, so I pose this hypothetical, since any mention of the economics here are as a "side business."

Why do you not think it could be a full-time venture? Is the demand not there? I was assuming that Wade / Dr. Bass / etc. did this full-time, 40 hours per week, and had the demand and orders coming in to actually fill 40 hours per week. Were they doing this part-time, as secondary income? Or was the slow-down just due to inefficiency of taking on custom builds?

I'm truly curious, is there enough demand to run a full-time boutique business?

(definition of "boutique business" being high quality / high price / low volume)


Of course it could be fulltime (more than 40 hours a week if you truly want to be successful). What I meant was full time only netted him a portion of that $96k. If you wanted to make similar money then you would have to devote far more time to it than what could be called a side business.
 
Sorry a little late. Been eyeing this thread for a while. Just wanted to get in and say I just recently got into red fang. I can't stop listening to any of it. Good ****.

We almost got a chance to play with them. I want to say they were coming around the Houston area not too too long ago but they ended up skipping out. That would have been a great time. Oh well.

By the way guys. Check out the band and tell me what you think. Albums all recorded and produced ourselves.

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these threads do move fast!

just getting caught up, I did enjoy this.
 
Of course thats true. But Wade was a self-professed one man operation, no?

You guys are (maybe?) older and more life-experienced than me, so I pose this hypothetical, since any mention of the economics here are as a "side business."

Why do you not think it could be a full-time venture? Is the demand not there? I was assuming that Wade / Dr. Bass / etc. did this full-time, 40 hours per week, and had the demand and orders coming in to actually fill 40 hours per week. Were they doing this part-time, as secondary income? Or was the slow-down just due to inefficiency of taking on custom builds?

I'm truly curious, is there enough demand to run a full-time boutique business?

(definition of "boutique business" being high quality / high price / low volume)

96K in revenue sounds like a lot. But once you consider the costs, it'd be tough to really get by on that and grow your business as well. I'm not a trained business guy, but I've got a fair grasp of what a successfully run business looks like, so bear with me if I get some of the terminology wrong.

First up, you have fixed costs. You need to have a place to work and the tools to build your cabinets. This would probably be your garage at first, or something similar. Tools have wear and tear, so you need to to upkeep on those. You have to pay for things like website hosting (and design if you can't do it yourself).

Then you've got research and development costs. You will probably need to build a few prototypes of just about anything before you'll be able to start selling them. This takes a bunch of time and potentially thousands in materials cost.

So say you've got all that behind you. You've got a place to work, the tools to make cabs, and the plans to make cabs that people want to buy. Assuming you're starting out with a small pool of cash, you take an order, use the cash on hand to buy materials, and then ship out your product. If you did it right, you've traded your time and expertise for more money than you started out with. You take what you need from that additional money to live on, and then funnel the rest back into the business.

Problems start to arise if there are unexpected costs. What happens if there's a manufacturing problem on that line of pre-amps you just sold? You're losing money there. All of a sudden you're dipping into the pool used for buying materials for the successful part of your business to bail out the part that just failed. At a certain point though, you can't bail yourself out without losing the ability to keep buying materials to put the successful part of your business going. So you have to stiff people on one end, and then drag out the cab making process on the other, hoping that your revenue stream can recover.

Every time you start a new product line, this is what you're doing. Any time something goes wrong with one order, you have to have the cushion to fall back on to make it right for your customers, or you can't. This is where I think most of the wade's/Dr. Bass's of the world fall down. They take risks in growth that come back to bite them in the ass.

The other big problem with custom cab making is that the profit margins are pretty slim. By the time you work in materials, speakers, construction time, and shipping, the price on a custom cab is pretty steep. You have to have some serious mojo cooking for that to be worth more than going to a local store and picking up a brand name cabinet for half the price.

In short, I think this kind of thing can be done. But it's hard work and it keeping it profitable while growing is a Herculean task (that'd be a good name for a song/album/band). The safe way to start it is to do it on the side until it's healthy enough to support you (and probably at least an employee or two).
 
But if you find yourself at this point, why wouldn't you quit your dayjob and run with it? Outside variables like vested retirement/pension? Even in that state, it'd be more profitable and successful to hire and train a skilled employee to work when you can't. I just can't fathom how any of these guys can let a successful and lucrative business fail so royally. That's what makes me want to get into the business, I feel like the hard part is just getting started, and maintaining or expanding would be the natural progression. Thats kinda how Schechter started right? Producing high-quality Fender parts?

I think it has to do with not being able to just run with it. Also maybe having your profit margin to tight to hire some extra help. I think thats why most companies you see that start to get a good following start to bump up the prices at a certain point. Which some people don't understand but It just went from a one man company to having 3-5 employees to keep up with the demand for things. I feel that some people wait to long to consider expanding too. They wait until they are already swamped with orders and in financial trouble which makes it hard to take on people to help. I don't know too many people willing to work for free.
 
I totally agree, and if they pay a 1/3 deposit for materials, and you build the product but then they back out, you resell the product to someone else, and just made 133% what you would have originally. Most companies LOVE when people back out of their orders after paying a deposit, its like free money.

Exactly. It covers you and as long as you put down somewhere that it is a non-refundable deposit most people are ok with it. There will be people that will ask for it back and threaten you with legal action ,but they really have nothing to stand on as long as you did complete the product. Reimbursing them is at your discretion after you sell the product.
 
Haha thanks for your responses guys, I think some of you have the impression that I see 96k and get little dollar signs in my eyes... I understand thats revenue, not net profit. I'm more commenting on the fact that these guys didn't slowly diminish like most failing businesses, but seemed to drop off the face of the earth right at their peak. Although Wade's story with the Magma's reallllllly sucks, we felt bad for him initially, but everyone gave him the benefit of the doubt in the hopes he'd make it better. He never did though.
 
Behringer bddi21. Basically the Sansamp. I thought about just getting the Sansamp. MXR m80 got as good reviews and is about $60 cheaper new.
The M80 doesn't sound all that much like the Sansamp at all. I tried the M80 and it was nice but not what I was going for. Nothing really bad to say about it, just that it wasn't for me. The Sansamp, however, was just what I was looking for.

But they're definitely not interchangeable; very different tonal characteristics.


Well that DI will change your tone. It has mid-scoops and LPF's all over the place. It's not a bad product and if you like the sound why change?
Indeed. None of those are in any way transparent.
 
Well that DI will change your tone. It has mid-scoops and LPF's all over the place. It's not a bad product and if you like the sound why change?

Because the Behringer is made from plastic and I would want something a little sturdier. I really have no knowledge when it comes to DI stuff. I know what it's for and how to hook it up, but I am not knowledgable on the technical side of it. Are there several DI's that would fit into that category, or is it the Sansamp or nothing?
 
Sales income is a lot different than profit when you're a custom builder, trust me. Especially when you figure in overhead, tool maintenance, defective products, shortages and incorrect orders from vendors and customer service issues that cost you money. Sh*t rolls downhill in the production world. The vendors AND the customers want you to pay for their mistakes and miscommunications. It doesn't matter if you have a contract with very clear terms, if you're not a big chain business and you have to stay competitive with your prices and you rely on good word of mouth or repeat business, you've got to find a way to keep customers happy. I have had years where I personally sold over half a million in sales and had to take a pay cut that made it hard to pay my mortgage.

That being said, Wade did exactly the worst thing. He overextended himself, left no room to make mistakes and left a ton of bad sentiment from customers. If he's lucky he might be able to move on from it or start a new business in the future and not have it haunt him. I have local competitors that have done the exact same thing. The difference between my family's business and theirs is that we've been around for 20 years, so we have low overhead and have been able to tighten belts to keep things running while some of our competitors have left customers in the lurch and burned bridges...only to move on to a new venture with a new name in a new city.

On another note, along the same lines, addressing what someone else said...my grandfather used to say "Sometimes the best business you do, is the business you don't do.". Some people just don't know how to say no, or learn time management, and it only takes one screw up to burn everything down.
 
Because the Behringer is made from plastic and I would want something a little sturdier. I really have no knowledge when it comes to DI stuff. I know what it's for and how to hook it up, but I am not knowledgable on the technical side of it. Are there several DI's that would fit into that category, or is it the Sansamp or nothing?

The Sansamp/M80/Behringer is a bassist's tool kit. It's a distortion, a preamp, and a DI box.

What are YOU using it for?
 
If you like the sound of the Behringer just keep it. They make perfectly good sounding products, they're just cheap and people like to gripe about how they rip off designs (as if the music gear industry isn't based on that concept). The only legit complaint people have about the brand is that they tend to be cheap and break (sometimes). So if it's not broke, don't fix it.