T.C.Electronic is dead to me. I now boycott them.

[bongomania]

I need to make it very clear here that I am not talking about a pedal that is "disappointing" or just "not very good". I am talking about a pedal that literally does not do the normal functions it claims to do.

Sure, I will own that my language in the heat of anger had some hyperbole. That's fine.

 

[Eublet]

I'm in the same boat. Was gonna order one of those new flashy looking tuners but not after all of this. With business practices like that? I'll stick with Boss.

Well, your comment kind of reflects what I was saying earlier. I can't tell you how many folks (myself included) have been absolutely disgusted with the Boss TU-2 pedal tuner. Horrible tracking, especially for bass in a noisey environment for some reason. I can name 5 people off the top of my head who live in a 2 mile radius of me who will never use another Boss tuner. At the same time, I can name 5 folks in that same area who love them. So what gives?

A report is just a report. Stuff happens unfortunately, especially when a company is going through a massive growth spurt. That doesn't make poor CS okay or permissable. These kinds of things should be addressed. But hearing of an issue and automatically thinking you know everything that is necessary to write an entire company and their product line off is the definition of knee-jerk.

 

[Eublet]

I need to make it very clear here that I am not talking about a pedal that is "disappointing" or just "not very good". I am talking about a pedal that literally does not do the normal functions it claims to do.

Ya know, that sounds a lot like the claims some folks made against the Punch Factory!

 

[milkman-27]

Well, your comment kind of reflects what I was saying earlier. I can't tell you how many folks (myself included) have been absolutely disgusted with the Boss TU-2 pedal tuner. Horrible tracking, especially for bass in a noisey environment for some reason. I can name 5 people off the top of my head who live in a 2 mile radius of me who will never use another Boss tuner. At the same time, I can name 5 folks in that same area who love them. So what gives?

A report is just a report. Stuff happens unfortunately, especially when a company is going through a massive growth spurt. That doesn't make poor CS okay or permissable. These kinds of things should be addressed. But hearing of an issue and automatically thinking you know everything that is necessary to write an entire company and their product line off is the definition of knee-jerk.

So how is CS at Boss? If the pedal tuner doesn't work will they help you with the problem?

 

[Marlat]

Specifically, I am asserting that this product is not fit for purpose, and that they appeared to be denying any responsibility for that. I know different legal standards in different regions and courts govern the use of the word "fraud", but that was my intended use of it.

Well, I am not aware of anywhere where simply producing a product not fit for use would meet the definition of fraud. Perhaps it does in Oregon, but if not, its a fairly serious allegation and one which if in print, is potentially actionable if the allegation causes loss. Now, I have no idea whether TCE would even contemplate bringing an action against someone on an internet forum who cost them some sales, but its not beyond the realm of possibility. I guess, if I were you, I would be careful which particular words I used when publishing things online. Perhaps I am overly cautious, some might say it comes with my job.

However, wth regard to your comment that they are denying that the pedal is not fit for purpose; I would be surprised if they would accept that. I don't know what was actually said between you and TCE, but if someone were to say to me "you need to accept responsibility that your product is not fit for purpose" I would also not accept that. I would respond that all my R&D and product testing says otherwise. In addition, in order to make that allegation generally about the product, you would need to have sampled a large random sampling. Unless I am mistaken you sampled two from the same dealer and one was "b-stock". Is it possible that the dealer just received a dud batch? I guess I would need to know exactly what TCE were asked to take responsibility for (and on what terms) before knowing whether their response was warranted.

Going back to my earlier point, if TCE as a business decision have decided that CS enquiries are to be handled through their dealers (and their dealers are compensated for that through the dealer agreement), is it really your place to insist the TCE handle it directly? I'd have thought that as a consumer you buy on the terms that the manufacturer has arranged with the retailer. It may be that TCE would rather deal with their dealers who can work out whether its a one off or a systemic issue.

Thats not to take away from the crappy CS you received from "Eric" and the manager who telephoned you. There really is no excuse for that. But, the fact that TCE arn't equipped for CS may be why they use their dealers to deal with retail customers rather than deal directly. I don't know. Personally if its upset you then you should boycott them. I find it hard to understand why others who haven't got direct experience would do the same based on the evidence offered in this thread. That said, each to their own.

 

[Eublet]

So how is CS at Boss? If the pedal tuner doesn't work will they help you with the problem?

I don't know, but that wasn't the point of my post. I'm just saying that what a person hears about a product influences their decision. The decision to choose Boss over TC at this point is the polar opposite of what others are doing because of what they know. And both groups seem to feel justified about their decision. I'm just posting how ironic it is. Really didn't mean anything more in that.

 

[milkman-27]

Well, I am not aware of anywhere where simply producing a product not fit for use would meet the definition of fraud. Perhaps it does in Oregon, but if not, its a fairly serious allegation and one which if in print, is potentially actionable if the allegation causes loss. Now, I have no idea whether TCE would even contemplate bringing an action against someone on an internet forum who cost them some sales, but its not beyond the realm of possibility. I guess, if I were you, I would be careful which particular words I used when publishing things online. Perhaps I am overly cautious, some might say it comes with my job.

However, wth regard to your comment that they are denying that the pedal is not fit for purpose; I would be surprised if they would accept that. I don't know what was actually said between you and TCE, but if someone were to say to me "you need to accept responsibility that your product is not fit for purpose" I would also not accept that. I would respond that all my R&D and product testing says otherwise. In addition, in order to make that allegation generally about the product, you would need to have sampled a large random sampling. Unless I am mistaken you sampled two from the same dealer and one was "b-stock". Is it possible that the dealer just received a dud batch? I guess I would need to know exactly what TCE were asked to take responsibility for (and on what terms) before knowing whether their response was warranted.

Going back to my earlier point, if TCE as a business decision have decided that CS enquiries are to be handled through their dealers (and their dealers are compensated for that through the dealer agreement), is it really your place to insist the TCE handle it directly? I'd have thought that as a consumer you buy on the terms that the manufacturer has arranged with the retailer. It may be that TCE would rather deal with their dealers who can work out whether its a one off or a systemic issue.

Thats not to take away from the crappy CS you received from "Eric" and the manager who telephoned you. There really is no excuse for that. But, the fact that TCE arn't equipped for CS may be why they use their dealers to deal with retail customers rather than deal directly. I don't know. Personally if its upset you then you should boycott them. I find it hard to understand why others who haven't got direct experience would do the same based on the evidence offered in this thread. That said, each to their own.

It is no different than someone not buying something because it got a bad review. Some people don't have the money to throw away on sub-par equipment.

 

[Eublet]

Well, I am not aware of anywhere where simply producing a product not fit for use would meet the definition of fraud. Perhaps it does in Oregon, but if not, its a fairly serious allegation and one which if in print, is potentially actionable if the allegation causes loss. Now, I have no idea whether TCE would even contemplate bringing an action against someone on an internet forum who cost them some sales, but its not beyond the realm of possibility. I guess, if I were you, I would be careful which particular words I used when publishing things online. Perhaps I am overly cautious, some might say it comes with my job.

However, wth regard to your comment that they are denying that the pedal is not fit for purpose; I would be surprised if they would accept that. I don't know what was actually said between you and TCE, but if someone were to say to me "you need to accept responsibility that your product is not fit for purpose" I would also not accept that. I would respond that all my R&D and product testing says otherwise. In addition, in order to make that allegation generally about the product, you would need to have sampled a large random sampling. Unless I am mistaken you sampled two from the same dealer and one was "b-stock". Is it possible that the dealer just received a dud batch? I guess I would need to know exactly what TCE were asked to take responsibility for (and on what terms) before knowing whether their response was warranted.

Going back to my earlier point, if TCE as a business decision have decided that CS enquiries are to be handled through their dealers (and their dealers are compensated for that through the dealer agreement), is it really your place to insist the TCE handle it directly? I'd have thought that as a consumer you buy on the terms that the manufacturer has arranged with the retailer. It may be that TCE would rather deal with their dealers who can work out whether its a one off or a systemic issue.

Thats not to take away from the crappy CS you received from "Eric" and the manager who telephoned you. There really is no excuse for that. But, the fact that TCE arn't equipped for CS may be why they use their dealers to deal with retail customers rather than deal directly. I don't know. Personally if its upset you then you should boycott them. I find it hard to understand why others who haven't got direct experience would do the same based on the evidence offered in this thread. That said, each to their own.

+1 all the way around, especially on the dealer comments. I'm not sure what TC's arrangement is, but for international companies it's not unusual at all for all support or warrantee claims to go through the dealer or distributor.

As for "email only" type support, I can only say that to me it becomes very difficult to guage intent and tone this way. Exact instructions can be perceived as terse or flippant. Been there, done that. Being able to talk to a live person on the phone goes a long way to make someone feel better. But then again, staffing competent phone support is not an easy task either.

No excuses, but I'm not one to throw out the baby with the bathwater either.

 

[bongomania]

It is no different than someone not buying something because it got a bad review. Some people don't have the money to throw away on sub-par equipment.

And that is really what I intend when I post a bad review, or "raise a stink". There are so many companies out there that are truly good to their customers, that I just have no interest in giving my money to a company that can't be bothered--no matter how you analyze the legalese interpretations. In fact I think that type of labored dissection completely misses the boat. So what if there might be some angle of interpretation of some wording from the manufacturer where their position is not "really" as offensive or indefensible as the disgruntled consumer claims? The point is that now more of us have an idea of what may happen if things go sour with a TC product. And there are many companies to buy from that emphasize customer service to a greater degree.

 

[Eublet]

It is no different than someone not buying something because it got a bad review. Some people don't have the money to throw away on sub-par equipment.

True, but pick anything you love and spend an hour reading reviews on the internet. Folks love it, folks hate it. You'll find two sides. Same goes for CS for most companies. There are a few companies that have perfect CS. They're usually smaller and a bit more agile so that they can provide it. For all the rave reviews that Genz Benz gets (and it's well deserved), most folks also mention that 9 times out of 10, they dealt directly with Jeff Genzler when they had an issue. That won't scale forever, and with the success they are having I'm sure they'll have to figure out a model that will. I believe the guys at Genz will put everything they have into keeping it working. But it does open the door for failures which leads to a bad report. I'm just telling you this because I've been on the management end of this kind of growth, and it can be an incredible challenge.

Some folks will knee-jerk this and refuse to buy anything based on a report or two. Others will see that TC has been around for a while and have done many things right, that Uffe is here trying to help make this right. To me it's what happens over time that is most important. I was an Eden user a few years ago, but after a while enough was enough. But I stuck it out long enough to know that I wasn't just bailing out for nothing. I heard MANY horrible reports before I made the decision to move on. The confusing thing was that I heard a good number of positive reports during that period as well. The balance of the two is what ultimately mattered, along with a couple of bad experiences personally.

So I don't blame Bongo if he doesn't trust TC anymore based on this. He had the experience. I still think it's a knee-jerk reaction when people read a single thread like this and feel completely justified in slamming a company with a long, outstanding track record. But that's just my opinion, and you know what those are like.

 

[gnasher1993]

 

[vin*tone]

My 2 c...

When I was buying a compressor pedal I researched different brands extensively on the net and Bongo's site was pretty much the most comprehensive resource out there. Which ever brand I googled- there it was. Believe me - right now there are hundreds of people reading those pages and thinking twice about buying a TCE unit.

I'm not entirely sure why someone would be so enthusiastic about compressor pedals but - hey - I get it- and if one of the worlds BEST electronics companies puts out a pedal that doesn't even do what it's supposed to do it's no longer about getting your money back. It's about finding out why. And when some poorly trained douche bag prevents you from doing so through his own arrogance, ignorance or incompetence then that's enough to send you over the edge.

CS matters, and web talk about CS matters too. Just look at Eden.

(hasn't stopped me GASsin for an RH450 )

 

[bongomania]

If that's not agreeable to bongomania standards, then just do what they obviously expect you to do if not pleased with the product... Return it.

What part of "publishing a review" do you not understand? How about if I just posted a review that it was a piece of crap pedal, and then other users came along and said "no, mine is great, you're wrong--why didn't you contact TC to find out whether the one you got was defective?"

If I buy a BMW that supposed to have holographic nude photo's of supermodels projecting on the dash while and I drive, and it doesn't, and they suggest that I return it if I'm not happy... I'm 100% sure that I'm going to return it. I'm not going demand to talk to the engineers responsible for holographic nude photo development in order to set them straight as to what nude photo afficianado's really want and expect.

Dude, that is so immature, inappropriate, and illogical that it is obvious you have nothing to add to this discussion. Please go to Wikipedia and look up "logical fallacy".

 

[PhatBasstard]

What part of "publishing a review" do you not understand? How about if I just posted a review that it was a piece of crap pedal, and then other users came along and said "no, mine is great, you're wrong--why didn't you contact TC to find out whether the one you got was defective?"

Dude, that is so immature, inappropriate, and illogical that it is obvious you have nothing to add to this discussion. Please go to Wikipedia and look up "logical fallacy".

Absolutely.

 

[PhatBasstard]

I'm not one to throw out the baby with the bathwater either.

The bathwater did what it was supposed to do, right?!

So many of these "analogies" are so off the mark it makes me wonder if some of you really read (or comprehended) the whole incident as presented.

If Bongo was skewing the truth (and I highly doubt he is), then some of this stuff might make sense.
But if it truly was the "so what", "return it", multi-person ball of ignorance as presented, there is absolutely no defensive argument for it. Period!

 

[synaesthesia]

Well it's a tough one. I sympathise but the reality of it all is this is the modern corporate practice. 4/5 companies don't list phone numbers anymore, and some don't even have addresses.

I could rattle a list of companies that stiffed me on shxx CS; DIGITECH ignored me several times, NADY, ADA, ART, Alesis, Korg, Line 6, Moses Graphite, Rickenbacker, Carvin, NOLL, .......

and several who have responded in a timely and well mannered business response when there were issues raised: Digital music corp, Alembic (Mica) , Demeter (James and Diane) , SWR (pre Fender), Mesa engineering (various people), Fender (FMIC), Marshall, EMG ( R Turner), Status ( R Green), KINMAN (chris), Conklin, Ken Warmoth, G & L, K & K, BSX (Dino) ...

 

[Marlat]

And that is really what I intend when I post a bad review, or "raise a stink". There are so many companies out there that are truly good to their customers, that I just have no interest in giving my money to a company that can't be bothered--no matter how you analyze the legalese interpretations. In fact I think that type of labored dissection completely misses the boat. So what if there might be some angle of interpretation of some wording from the manufacturer where their position is not "really" as offensive or indefensible as the disgruntled consumer claims? The point is that now more of us have an idea of what may happen if things go sour with a TC product. And there are many companies to buy from that emphasize customer service to a greater degree.

I guess the problem, in this instance is that, again, based on your own quote, your language in "the heat of anger had some hyperbole". How am I to know how much of what you describe as transpiring between TCE and yourself was actually what was said and done vs hyperbole added for effect or because of anger? It becomes a difficult judgement when the person presenting the facts of the situation admits to having their descriptions coloured by anger. This is why, as I have already posted, I would want to hear both sides of a dispute before making judgement. I find it hard to believe that TCE have a great excuse for some of the allegations you have made. However, I would like to hear their take on this before passing the "permaban" on their products. As I said, I have no problem with you deciding to boycott them based on whatever you experienced. Whether what you experienced matches up with what TCE feel happened...that's the bit I am waiting for before making up my own mind.

 

[Eublet]

Dude, that is so immature, inappropriate, and illogical that it is obvious you have nothing to add to this discussion. Please go to Wikipedia and look up "logical fallacy".

I don't know, Bongo. I can kind of see both sides of this. I would expect you to search deeper and try to figure out why the pedal doesn't seem to be doing what the manufacturer says it should be doing, or why you don't percieve it, or whatever. But at the same time, the company is under no requirement to provide you with the level of detail you are asking for. That level of detail isn't part of the CS equation IMHO. I think that it was a perfectly reasonable response for them to say "sorry you aren't happy and feel the pedal doesn't satisfy you. Please return it to your dealer." It seems that response didn't come soon enough or kindly enough in this case to say the least.

 

[Swift713]

The bathwater did what it was supposed to do, right?!

So many of these "analogies" are so off the mark it makes me wonder if some of you really read (or comprehended) the whole incident as presented.

+1
Also, the baby didn't manufacture and market the bathwater, unless you have really perverse ideas about child rearing.

I don't think anyone is saying they won't buy TCE products because of this one report. It's a cumulative scale tipping effect.
It seems to me they've been coming out with a lot of cool looking stuff lately but that quality control and customer service haven't been keeping up with their aggressive marketing.

 

[PhatBasstard]

Also, the baby didn't manufacture and market the bathwater, unless you have really perverse ideas about child rearing.

LOL