The Combo Club

[RodRy]

This is one of the things that I was completely unprepared for the first time I visited the US. In Norway, we tip for good service, but certainly not to the tune of 20%, and it’s by no means required, as serving staff are on fixed wages like any other employee. So to some of us foreigners, tipping in the US can come as a bit of a shock.

I think Norway has this right.

 

[RodRy]

No. Plots and conspiracy theories do not relate to anything, including snow IMHO.

Just what I would expect a communist plotter to say...very interesting...this makes for an even stronger theory.

Edit: Not sure if a communist plotter is inkjet, laser, or dot matrix?

 

[BlacknWhite]

Right now it's almost chilly here:86F(real feel 97), humidity and dew point both @79, thunderstorm. In other words, typical S FL summer day.

Up here when it gets above 30c everyone is like

 

[SoulReflection]

Just what I would expect a communist plotter to say...very interesting...this makes for an even stronger theory.

Edit: Not sure if a communist plotter is inkjet, laser, or dot matrix?

. Thanks, but I'm done...

 

[GonePlaid]

Yeah, you keep your share of that, I'll keep my share of the snow. Deal?

Yer welcome to all of that [stuff] you can handle.

 

[JakobT]

I often feel conflicted about tipping. On one hand, I feel that the wait staff should be paid a decent wage, expected to do a good job, and thus no tips should be expected unless exemplary service is rendered. Of course, this means prices would go up, but so what? If the price goes up 18% across the menu, it's still cheaper for me than the 20% I'm paying on top, and the staff would get better and more reliable pay.

On the other hand, the economic reality is that my outlook is the minority, and the staff gets paid paltry wages because the tipping is expected. Thus I give 20% for average service, and a bit more (normally in whole dollar increments, not percentages) for service that goes beyond.

I hate the fact that I'm expected to subsidize a pay and reward system that I am so against, but I also feel strongly that others should not suffer unfairly because I don't like a system beyond their control.

How's that for a good rant? I have not posted one in a while, so I think I was due.

Completely agree. The system is unfair, and by following it we help it to stay in place, but it would be more unfair still if we didn’t tip, and the already underpaid staff would bear the brunt of that. I was just unprepared for it initially.

 

[JPDsma]

This is very interesting @JPDsma. I would love to hear more.

We touched on a few Different things, what things were you interested in knowing more about?

 

[onefitter]

Apparently, serving staff in the US are at minimum wage because the management "assumes" patrons will tip, increasing the serving staff's income by 20%. Then, taxation takes over, assuming that the serving staff are making 20% more so, if this is the case, it shouldn't be shocking but, I could be wrong .

In Mi. wait staff don't get minimum wage as tips are supposed to more than make up the differance.

 

[GonePlaid]

In Mi. wait staff don't get minimum wage as tips are supposed to more than make up the differance.

FL too.

 

[GwenOnBass]

[long ago] A tourist in NYC (neighbor of mine) tipped a penny at the Russian Tea Room. Only a few steps outside did he realize he left his camera at the table. And took on the unenviable face-to-face with his waiter.

You know, there really is something about New York.

 

[SoulReflection]

We touched on a few Different things, what things were you interested in knowing more about?

Things like how you got to be in Mexico, how the virus is affecting you and what the music scene is like. I can Google to see how much $ 300 pesos is in US dollars . I have always wanted to visit but never had the chance, especially now.

 

[SoulReflection]

In Mi. wait staff don't get minimum wage as tips are supposed to more than make up the differance.

FL too.

That puts a lot of trust in the customer and pressure on the cook not to screw up...

 

[swink]

Ouch...I even tip when they don't deserve it...not the full amount, however. If they do deserve a tip, I tip more than the 20% and I am Canadian! Maybe some of them think that, with the exchange rate, they are already paying too much. If that is the case, they should stay at home IMHO.

Edit: and currently they have to and should .

I've done my time in the European hospitality industry and have sworn to always put all the small change in my pockets on the table for the service. (I hide the tip under a plate or a napkin so that the person who cleans up my mess gets the tip, and not the one who collects the money and usually doesn't bother to deposit it in the joint pot).

 

[Liko]

Apparently, serving staff in the US are at minimum wage because the management "assumes" patrons will tip, increasing the serving staff's income by 20%. Then, taxation takes over, assuming that the serving staff are making 20% more so, if this is the case, it shouldn't be shocking but, I could be wrong .

It's worse than that even. The restaurant actually pays less than minimum wage, because the restaurant is allowed (required) to include tips as part of the employee's taxable income, from which their actual hourly rate for Fair Labor Standards Act (minimum wage/overtime) purposes is calculated. The restaurant offers a base wage so they have a foundation to track the server's payroll (last time I was in the game it was about $2.30/hr) and the server's expected to earn the rest of their income in tips (and theoretically to report them, though servers love cash tips for the lack of paper trail). The restaurant is, in theory, liable for making up the difference if a server's tips don't cover minimum wage for the hours worked in a week, but if that's the case the server typically isn't long for that job.

This is changing, but very slowly. Opposition to changing the status quo comes from many sides, and is closely tied to the larger fight over a higher minimum wage. The biggest single problem is one we already have, that would get much worse before it got better; customers being aware of when and where the person serving them is "tip-dependent". The first restaurant to adopt a fair-wage model in any particular market is going to have a "first-mover disadvantage" inherent in the higher prices on the menu compared to their competition, and competition in the restaurant business is very cutthroat, with margins extremely slim. It usually takes a massive marketing barrage, like Southwest's "Bags Fly Free", to let customers know what the deal is and why what they're paying is worth it versus their competition. You also have to define "fair-wage"; the US minimum wage puts a single earner just above the Federal poverty line, and a family of three below it. A restaurant paying minimum wage and marketing that as "fair" to the public would likely end up being a pay cut for waitstaff, as patrons would think "not tip-dependent" and tip little or nothing, while the restaurant isn't covering the difference. So, "fair wage" for tip-dependent workers gets entangled in the fight over "minimum wage" for all workers (service industry and otherwise), which is a hotly-contested debate for a variety of practical, political and theoretical reasons that this post is already too long to include.

The most accepted compromise is for all full-service restaurants to make the gratuity required for all parties. This is already policy at many restaurants for large parties or high total amounts, to prevent the person getting sticker shock and stiffing the waitstaff. The law in most US jurisdictions is that you are liable for the amount on the bottom line of the check unless there is an articulable error in the charges, so adding 15-20% as a base gratuity that the customer is now required to pay means the server gets theirs much more reliably, and the customer can still tip more if the service really went above and beyond.

Like any compromise, nobody really likes it. Customers don't like it because a traditional signal of bad service is a small tip; if the minimum possible tip is 18%, and the servers know that, then the chance of poor service is higher because the pay's the same whether you try or not, and there's little recourse other than the Karen-esque "I need to speak with your manager". Restaurants don't like it because their floor managers spend more time listening to complaints about how the service wasn't worth the minimum tip (or the simple fact that they dared to make the customer pay the tip they likely would have added anyway) than they do preventing complaints by keeping things flowing normally. And waitstaff don't like it because patrons who might normally tip 20% or more see an included gratuity of 15-18% and don't add any extra, making this system a pay cut at established high-end places with well-heeled clientele.

 

[GwenOnBass]

Because of the Thing That's Going Around, many places only accept electronic transactions. This shuts out a portion of the population from general services.

 

[jmhaslip]

Haha yeah good eye man. It sure is. An old Peavey 115 with the black widow in it. Not mine though it came in for repair the other day.

I have one too. It's the only bit of my first bass rig left, bought in 1974.

 

[RodRy]

The most accepted compromise is for all full-service restaurants to make the gratuity required for all parties.

Like any compromise, nobody really likes it. Customers don't like it because a traditional signal of bad service is a small tip; if the minimum possible tip is 18%, and the servers know that, then the chance of poor service is higher because the pay's the same whether you try or not, and there's little recourse other than the Karen-esque "I need to speak with your manager". Restaurants don't like it because their floor managers spend more time listening to complaints about how the service wasn't worth the minimum tip (or the simple fact that they dared to make the customer pay the tip they likely would have added anyway) than they do preventing complaints by keeping things flowing normally. And waitstaff don't like it because patrons who might normally tip 20% or more see an included gratuity of 15-18% and don't add any extra, making this system a pay cut at established high-end places with well-heeled clientele.

I used to hate the added-in tip, but once I understood it better, it made sense to me. I'm a firm believer that tipping has nothing to do with rewarding service or competence. I don't tip my doctor, my mechanic, my plumber, or my grocery store staff. For that matter, no one tips me. Service is still rendered reliably and cheerfully.

If an added-in-tip will help eliminate the unreliable practice of tipping, I'm for it.

 

[JPDsma]

Things like how you got to be in Mexico, how the virus is affecting you and what the music scene is like. I can Google to see how much $ 300 pesos is in US dollars . I have always wanted to visit but never had the chance, especially now.

How I (we) got to Mexico by Jim Douglas....
We had a BnB in Mendocino (and I was a full time Sr Transportation Engineer for State of CA). Our first July 4 weekend, a week after we took ownership, we saw a man and woman IN ALL BLACK, walking through the garden. They asked if we had a room and surprisingly we had the only one left in town and likely the cheapest. Got to know them a little. They did the same thing the following year and again, that room was open. Got to know them better, they are House and House Architects. They thought we might enjoy San Miguel de Allende. Came down in early ‘10, fell in love with the weather, people, character (and cost of living and that was when it was 10 pesos to a USD). By end of ‘11 we bought land. By Jan of ‘15 we were under construction. Moved in 10/18 after finally selling the In for what we paid just before the crash. We each have single seat Maas Aeros for the lake here, I have my BMW K1200RS moto, and finally have all my woodworking tools available that were in storage during the Inn phase. just before selling the Inn, I bought a Michael Kelly Dragonfly ABG and got back into bass after 40 years.
The music scene here is decent - Mendo had many retired rock stars and producers- Mostly for us, it is retired gringos playing at gringo bars Open mic nights are popular and most music seems to be more acoustic and/or jazz oriented. There are/were several very good bands with a mix if Mexican and US/CAN/EURO. members. One drummer was the studio and touring drummer for Diana Ross. Our yoga instructor’s beau is a very accomplished Double Bass and Bass guitar player in jazz (at one time he owned that bass Jaco left in the NY studio ) I was just starting to out feelers out for more playing when This Thing came around. The guitarist and founder of our Jugband moved back to the States to be near grandkids in Feb, and now we can’t get a guitarist, even if we could play.
Most Mexicans rightly have historically had no trust in their government. As a result, maybe half think the Virus is a Johnson &Johnson conspiracy, even though we are just now (hopefully) hitting the peak. Fortunately, surviving restaurants rapidly adapted to delivery service. Fortunate for us gringos that won’t go out anymore. Even though we are just peaking Restaurants and hotels were able to go up to 35% occupancy this past weekend if they met conditions.
Well, that is a big nutshell. We live it here and have no desire to move back to the States for many reasons, but will return to visit friends and family. SMA is pretty expensive for Mexico, but much less than Mendo was. It is a cash economy, no mortgages! We love it here.

 

[SoulReflection]

How I (we) got to Mexico by Jim Douglas....
We had a BnB in Mendocino (and I was a full time Sr Transportation Engineer for State of CA). Our first July 4 weekend, a week after we took ownership, we saw a man and woman IN ALL BLACK, walking through the garden. They asked if we had a room and surprisingly we had the only one left in town and likely the cheapest. Got to know them a little. They did the same thing the following year and again, that room was open. Got to know them better, they are House and House Architects. They thought we might enjoy San Miguel de Allende. Came down in early ‘10, fell in love with the weather, people, character (and cost of living and that was when it was 10 pesos to a USD). By end of ‘11 we bought land. By Jan of ‘15 we were under construction. Moved in 10/18 after finally selling the In for what we paid just before the crash. We each have single seat Maas Aeros for the lake here, I have my BMW K1200RS moto, and finally have all my woodworking tools available that were in storage during the Inn phase. just before selling the Inn, I bought a Michael Kelly Dragonfly ABG and got back into bass after 40 years.
The music scene here is decent - Mendo had many retired rock stars and producers- Mostly for us, it is retired gringos playing at gringo bars Open mic nights are popular and most music seems to be more acoustic and/or jazz oriented. There are/were several very good bands with a mix if Mexican and US/CAN/EURO. members. One drummer was the studio and touring drummer for Diana Ross. Our yoga instructor’s beau is a very accomplished Double Bass and Bass guitar player in jazz (at one time he owned that bass Jaco left in the NY studio ) I was just starting to out feelers out for more playing when This Thing came around. The guitarist and founder of our Jugband moved back to the States to be near grandkids in Feb, and now we can’t get a guitarist, even if we could play.
Most Mexicans rightly have historically had no trust in their government. As a result, maybe half think the Virus is a Johnson &Johnson conspiracy, even though we are just now (hopefully) hitting the peak. Fortunately, surviving restaurants rapidly adapted to delivery service. Fortunate for us gringos that won’t go out anymore. Even though we are just peaking Restaurants and hotels were able to go up to 35% occupancy this past weekend if they met conditions.
Well, that is a big nutshell. We live it here and have no desire to move back to the States for many reasons, but will return to visit friends and family. SMA is pretty expensive for Mexico, but much less than Mendo was. It is a cash economy, no mortgages! We love it here.

What a great journey you have had @JPDsma! Thank you so much for sharing.

I hope you find a guitarist and get back to some kind of normal. I may have stayed at your BnB in Mendo years ago.

I now have a reason to visit if "conditions" allow. Let me know when you plan to return for a visit. We are in Sonoma County and would love to meet up.

Sorry for the side-track FL but, at least we are combo members .

 

[SoulReflection]

Just wondering where FL, @iagtrplyr is? Haven't heard from him since Saturday morning...