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The death of jamming

I just saw this thread and haven't read all 7 pages worth (will try over a longer period) but wanted to post my feelings on the topic as it's always been very vital for me. ..."to jam" is something some players are receptive to, and some aren't - simple as that. I would never try to get a player to "jam" if they didn't want to, or had a cynical definition for what they perceive as "noodling" or whatever. It's just that cut and dried. I play in a couple bands that play songs (cover and originals). We play them with dynamics, feel and tightness and there is much to be gained from that as a player - needless to say, I love it. But I also jam, and I jam with seasoned elite players who also jam. For me, if a jam session is going well (not all do) it takes me (and every other player in the room) places. It stretches my creativity, it rewards open ears/mind and I learn more about my instrument, my playing and myself. Done correctly (meaning with open ears, a sensitivity to all the players input and a willingness to be a contributor to the group effort of creating uncharted vital music in real time) it's transformative. That's all - hats off to the OP. :thumbsup:
 
Personally, I don't enjoy jamming at all. I noodle enough on my own. I don't need a group of other people doing it at the same time.
But noodling with others is sooooo much more fulfilling dude. That's where the magic is. People playing genuinbe music with other people. Back in my first couple bands, that's all we did. Ha, it's funny too cause when we actually tried to put stuff together, we failed. But, we could jam for hours on end. That was fun. Not work, like a gigging band like I'm in now. I still jam out by myself, but it's not the same. I miss it.
 
Then there are those moments.
The times when everything comes together. Times when everyone is listening to one another and everything clicks.
Happens with newbies and beginners setting out for the unknown for maybe the first time, happens with journeymen and pro's looking for that cool buzz that the structured stuff doesn't supply. It happens at all levels of skill. It can be mesmerizing and addictive. It can be better than sex or drugs or dangerous sports. The most important thing is looking for it. If you don't put some steel in your spine and head out for the great unknown you'll never get to feel it. Sure there are train wrecks along the way, lord knows that I've been center stage for some of them but if I hadn't gone looking for the those moments I'd never get to feel the truly inspiring ones. If you're afraid to try you'll never feel the joy of succeeding. And as we all know, music can supply loads of joy. If the public places near you can't supply the space and time to do it invite some people to do it in private. It really is worth looking for.

big +1 :thumbsup:
 
I feel your pain. My BL runs a Tuesday night jam. It's very popular. It's common for a few members of a band to get up together, and they usually play material from their book, except the solos go on for two or three times as long. You don't know true despair until you've been subjected to a guitarist going off on a Spin Doctors tune for 15 minutes. Every once in a while I get up there and lay down an altered blues or a line from Miles. If the drummer is simpatico, it works for a little while, until the guitarists start honking off, and then dynamics and swing disappear, and I find myself trying to figure out how to close it out without anybody feeling like they've been cut off (even thought that is exactly what I'm doing).

Other nights I just show up with an acoustic guitar and make a fool of myself. Less stressful. :D
The Spin Doctors bass player Mark White was an instructor/salesman at a local guitar shop for years.
 
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Then there are those moments.
The times when everything comes together. Times when everyone is listening to one another and everything clicks.

Someone earlier mentioned (perhaps it was in the other thread) about not having the time to waste on wankers striving to transcend the wankery. And that’s certainly a reasonable and valid point for many.

I would only say that those times are the among the only times when time becomes meaningless. That’s worth a long chase here and there.

And if you’re lucky enough, as I certainly was, to fall in with a simpatico group that gets along and has fun, plays reasonably well, LISTENS, and enjoys growing and learning together, that chase tends get shorter and shorter.
 
Improvisation is the highest form of the art, but it had better be moving and at least have some context. Otherwise it is as others have suggested nothing more than "wanky noodling".

Bitches Brew would fall under that description.

Nothing wrong with that type of playing if people are using their ears and paying attention, but I do know what you mean. Too many people I know don't do anything but wanky noodling in get togethers that are supposed to be improv/jam sessions
 
*snip* it is something else entirely to have enough command of music as a language that you can communicate with others through it in a way that is exciting not only for the musicians but for people listening and watching it happen live.
This.... particularly the crowd enjoyment...

I am happy to jam but prefer it at home...unless the players are killers (I am not) or you are familiar with the other players, it can get pretty ugly....or just end up 12bar and 1-4-5s over and over...which almost nobody wants to listen to.

Folks you know and trust, it can cook...

I like having a couple spots in a set where the band can stretch out if folks are feeling it..(ie one band does a Soul Stripper - Rasputin - 7Nation - Rasputin - Soul Stripper medley usually works...in the 7 or 2nd Soul Stripper...we each have a 'indicator' lick or riff and the others can nod or double if they feel it as well...and we use indicators and/or eye contact/feel to get back in our lane song wise and back to setlist. Works pretty well.
 
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Hey relax in my opinion you're just jamming with the wrong people!(musicians) I always encourage my students to try to soround them selves with musicians above there level or at the very least to be at there own level (especially when jamming!) WHY? So they'll be forced to keep up! wish =( progress!) or at the very least not sink down to a sh*ty level and play the catch up amatures night thing! wish = not progressing at all! and unfortunately eventually they'll experience frustrations ! (just like you are at the moment!) jamming with limited musicians will eventually bring you down to there level and worse of all you wont even notice it ! so just remember if feeling frustrated and you've got to step down to someone else level to keep it interesting then again, sorry I hate to be the one to tell you, but you're probably jamming with the wrong people ! (musicians!)


I like to play with better players than me....but it’s actually impossible to always do so...how do new lesser players get any experience? It’s a Catch 22 vicious circle.
 
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For many, "jam" and "open mic" is code for practicing with others. I loose interest in being a jam track for folks who practice in public. Also, many folks are attracted to covers for the right reasons. And folks are attracted to blues and jazz for the right reasons. Perhaps you could expand on the conventional, and keep covers as covers, and alternate with blues and jazz standards for extended solo swapping?
 
It's the advent of YouTube musicians. A lot of people are learning note for note from there. I lose a lot of students because I teach practical theory. The ones who get it become monsters. They are learning Nashville Number System first lesson and are playing (without fills) the first lesson. They are trained to use their ear and apply the things that they learn in every lessons.

Their friends may learn songs, but within 3 months, my guys are playing circles around the other teachers students... and they actually tend to stick with the instrument.

I was at a reception last night and a group of school kids were playing background music for it. Those kids were rockin' it with individual jazzed up solos. The bass player couldn't have been more than 13. He'd run circles around me. Time to go practice.
 
In my book, something like 'This is I IV V in C minor, watch for the stops in the chorus' is not jamming, this is improvising a song that already is in somebody's head.

Jamming is: 'We'll start in E minor and see where it takes us, anybody got a lick?'.

And that has become rare these days. Not only on (open) stages where people tend to play songs and the only thing improvised is that this particular ensemble never played that particular song, but also in practice rooms.

I know a few great jam musicians that forced me to partake in jams a while back. I hated it. I wanted a clear structure of a song, sit at home and work out a bassline, practice it and come back the next week to play the song as it was agreed upon. I felt out of my depth coming up with something on the fly, not knowing what the next change would bring. I felt I barely kept up and was in constant stress. But eventually, you get one of those golden moments, where everyone is on the same wavelength and it feels that you could attempt everything from chord changes to flipping through different rhythm patterns in perfect sync with every player in the room. Once you got a taste of that, you're usually hooked and want more. At first, these moments are rare, but they become more common. And sometimes they won't happen, no matter what you do (It's good to recognize these days early on and switch to beers and talk instead of making noise).

Without experienced jam musicians forcing me to partake, I'd still be sitting at home working on basslines for the next rehearsal and stay off anything where you have to make up your playing as you go along.
It is jamming that creates jam musicians. You can't learn that alone in your room. You need chops on your instrument, but more important is the feel for what the others are up to. You can get the chops by practicing. But you can't practice jamming without jamming. So you will have to dive in at the deep end and you will feel stressed out in the beginning.
 
I have another (humorous) thread going about jam bands. On a more serious note, I've been running jams for years, and probably always will. I'm saddened that so many people have lost the spirit of true jamming- Improvisation, and spontaneity.
Every week I end up with a bunch of GREAT players who just want to play songs. Maybe add a second (third...fourth) guitar solo, but the jamming aspect is all but gone.
I try to push my guests boundries, and a FEW of them get it. Go to double time feel, or a modulation, or switch up a groove- reggae Zeppelin, or metal Peaches and Herb.
I try to keep it interesting, and push peoples boundries.
I often just hit a brick wall. If it ain't on the record, they don't want to try it.
Too many automatons, not enough free spirits.
Another Pride and Joy.......in the same key as the record.....
Rant over.
I would rather jam, and have it be organized, to produce something that sounds good, I improv well, on bass it’s easy for me, but I find many people at jams, do not have the experience to improv, so many time is sounds likes a cluster _ _ _ _. Good luck with your dream, maybe you can make a difference?
 
I had a band once that never rehearsed, rarely talked to one another, gigged regularly and even made money. It lasted for about 4 years and then it seemed we ran out of things to say to each other (musically) and it ended. Total improv all the time either on stage or in the studio. Never played the same thing twice. Sounded like this:

http://www.reverbnation.com/p3usa


The most fun I ever had in a band.
That kind of band would make my day !
I´m so tired of the same songs played at "jam" sessions and those inevitable 12 bar blues runs...
 
Disclaimer. This is probably the most conceited thing I'll ever write on this website.

I like playing music with bands, but most of my bands don't jam at all, and I don't really care for jamming, either. I can do it, but... I would rather write, play, and try to refine songs and the arrangements to play them in fun, interesting ways. And to suggest that this somehow means I appreciate music at a lower level is a bit daft. I believe myself to be a good musician, and I believe myself to be a good songwriter. I come from the classical traditional where scores are written, and sure, you can improvise a grace note or a cadenza, but also, you compose full pieces. Then, I took jazz lessons and adapted to jazz, which, outside of free jazz, is often still pretty well defined in structure, though you do improvise, but jazz players know who the writers are. And even in a lot of "let's see what happens" kind of jazz, you often agree on scales and where you might go before you start playing. And now I play in the pop genre, which obviously has very defined songs, but I don't feel that it stifles me.

Maybe some people who prefer loose structure don't understand this, but there's an incredible amount of freedom in following a very rigid structure. This is why many poets choose to write sonnets. The structure of a sonnet is so restrictive at first, but once you have command of the structure, it actually guides you step by step. It is almost as though if you are trying to say something, the syllable and rhyme structure then help you distill what you're trying to say into something that can then fit into this neat, little box. It becomes a formula. Someone who only writes free verse can say whatever he or she wants, but when you're writing a sonnet, it's almost like you have a copilot.

So yeah, I can appreciate good, improvisational music. My issue with jamming in rock settings has always been that... in my experience, if the musicians aren't all that educated, a jam is only as creative as the least creative person in the room. And you need a lot of skill to battle inertia and for a group to start doing creative things. And because of that, the musical output is often unsatisfying for me, and ultimately not as complicated and interesting as something that one person sitting down and writing it from A to Z might have been able to come up with. And I guess I've never, ever been with musicians in a band where everybody was on that creative level. And if they're not on that level, someone please just tell them what to play. Does that sound bad? The creative process is honestly not that important for me if it's not producing output, and I don't care if it was dictatorial if the output is good, and I don't care that the process was beautiful and democratic if the output is predictable and repetitive. The output is what matters for me. Beethoven had an amazing life story that came with his music with his deafness and madness, but honestly, does it matter? You listen to that 7th symphony, and none of that story even matters, because the written notes are absolutely pristine.

And people who want to jam, I don't know, lot of times, I wish I could tell people that no, really, you really need to learn to read music, read Mozart, read Bach, learn to play Miles, learn to play Coltrane, and then come back to me, if you want to jam at a level that is even worth it for me. I need to believe that it's going somewhere to pour my heart and soul into it at real time, and I need to appreciate your chops as a musician and a writer before I even want to be part of a spontaneous creative process. If you can't keep up, it's not worth it. And that's because jamming is real time.

Even merely creatively collaborating with others is hard enough. At least, show me your best writing. Is it good? Do you write good changes when you sit down and write? If you can do all that, and then do it in real time, let's jam. It's like you don't want to see someone paint abstract because they can't paint realistic. You don't want to hear free poetry from someone who uses lack of structure as a crutch. But in my experience, I think most people who can write really well also just prefer to write and won't go up to another good writer and say, "let's jam." In fact, most writers often don't like it if you offer unwarranted suggestions, so even though I also play with people who are good writers, when they write, I let them alone unless they specifically ask me for an idea.

As for why I'm willing to let structure be my copilot, though, is because I respect structure and the traditions that they rise from. And the best part of playing pop music is that even though I never play the song the same way twice, there is enough structure to hide behind, and all of my improvisations and bad decisions don't derail the song.

So yeah. That's why I don't jam.
confused a bit ? here's your own words, " I don't really care for jamming, either. I can do it, "BUT"..." I would rather write, play, and try" to refine" songs and the arrangements to play them in "fun, interesting ways." ? ok I'll be the first to admit i'm by no means a Genious or anything like that, but even I know what you've just described is Jamming ! altering any song to make it more fun/refined/ or interesting is what jamming is all about!
 
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Bitches Brew would fall under that description.

Nothing wrong with that type of playing if people are using their ears and paying attention, but I do know what you mean. Too many people I know don't do anything but wanky noodling in get togethers that are supposed to be improv/jam sessions
Exactly! Early Weather Report, King Crimson MK 3, and a host of others from that era got what it was all about. Today's jammers would be well served to listen to improvisation from its golden era before simply noodling and expecting to sound like something.
 
I had a band once that never rehearsed, rarely talked to one another, gigged regularly and even made money. It lasted for about 4 years and then it seemed we ran out of things to say to each other (musically) and it ended. Total improv all the time either on stage or in the studio. Never played the same thing twice. Sounded like this:

http://www.reverbnation.com/p3usa


The most fun I ever had in a band.

Nice stuff! My current band has been improv-only for around 10 years now. Often times nobody has any idea what's going to happen, whether it's in the jam room or on stage. Compared to the strict rehearse/learn songs exact kind of bands I used to be in I never want this one to end. So much freedom, even if at times it can go off the rails (and believe me, it most certainly does).
 
The second time, the guitarist did his thing and I channeled Jack Bruce to match what he was doing. When we finished, he said " you got kinda crazy there on the bass." Another leg humper.
He wants you to play root notes so he can wank to his heart's content without having to actually listen to you. That's what most open mics are.