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The death of jamming

I get what you're saying, but as far as the don't/can't/won't play live thing, some of us just got sick of all the BS involved with gigging, and don't really feel like going to open mics that always have the same people at them. Plus, when you would get paid to gig, it doesn't really sound that appealing to go to an open mic jam for free, when you can jam with friends for free anyway at somebody's house, ya know?

Good point - the best jam sessions will not happen on those 'open mic' nights for the reason you stated - to much of a closed system. Many times they are very cliquish and redundant. "Spot-light" open-mic nights are better, where a house band opens the night and individuals or whole bands can sign up and play a few songs. I've done this once or twice developing trio's and wanting to test out the band before committing to a full gig. It's not about 'jamming' though.
 
As bass players, we have an inherent opportunity as "rudder" - working with the drummer to tactfully steer the ship into more interesting waters. That's why locking with the drummer is imperative. If the rhythm section is solid - it gives everyone else a platform/foundation to build on. Sounds familiar right? Luckily the guitarists I jam with are not "lead' players. They can play leads within a context but are more rhythm/general guitarists. The "lead guitarist" animal is a different story and can either be a really great part of a jam or a real downer. (ego-wanking) It's the nature of the beast.

I actually play open mics far more often these days without a drummer or any electric guitars, although I'm hoping to turn that around this summer. But if anything, that makes holding the fort down even more important in many cases.
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I actually play open mics far more often these days without a drummer or any electric guitars, although I'm hoping to turn that around this summer. But if anything, that makes holding the fort down even more important in many cases. View attachment 2947220

the groove rules
 
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Good point - the best jam sessions will not happen on those 'open mic' nights for the reason you stated - to much of a closed system. Many times they are very cliquish and redundant. "Spot-light" open-mic nights are better, where a house band opens the night and individuals or whole bands can sign up and play a few songs. I've done this once or twice developing trio's and wanting to test out the band before committing to a full gig. It's not about 'jamming' though.

Never been to one like that, but that definitely does sound like a better system.
 
Good point - the best jam sessions will not happen on those 'open mic' nights for the reason you stated - to much of a closed system. Many times they are very cliquish and redundant. "Spot-light" open-mic nights are better, where a house band opens the night and individuals or whole bands can sign up and play a few songs. I've done this once or twice developing trios and wanting to test out the band before committing to a full gig. It's not about 'jamming' though.

We have lots of those types going on in the summertime around here. That last outdoor one I played last year had 9 bassists and 5 drummers over 12 sets, all of whom gig fairly regularly. A few jams happened, but mostly it was a showcase deal. Drew a large crowd, plenty of dancers, lots of networking. Not really sustainable as a weekly thing in our smallish area, but super fun a couple of times a summer. I make it a point to miss a few and give other players a chance to sign up, keeps things much fresher that way.
 
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Never been to one like that, but that definitely does sound like a better system.

One goes on every Thursday night in my community at a pretty good sized bar. Smart for the biz as it brings in new people surrounding each 'band' or solo singer/player. Keeps the taps flowing on a slow night. The house band provides the back-line and all you need to do is sign up and plug your own bass/guitar in.
 
To me, that's a dick move to humiliate a musician in public like that, takes all the fun out of playing jazz, and is a reason why so many musicians are intimidated by jazz. It's a jam, not a rehearsed performance by an actual band, you have to make allowances for screw-ups, for cryin' out loud. If I was at a venue as an audience member and witnessed that, I'd leave.

I have heard of jazz jams in NYC where showing up with a real book gets you laughed out the door and so on. I love jazz, but I don't love all jazz musicians, and that's why.

Jazz isn't the only place this happens. Bluegrass/Old Timey jams are well known for the, "if you can't hang, get out of the circle" attitude. Not my thing at all. But I'm also not that proficient on any instrument enough to improv in either.

That said, despite being an extremely tight musical format and structure, real old timey/mountain is all about the jam. Maybe not the most adventurous for bass players. But bass is the entire rhythm section, and has to keep all the insanely fast fiddle, banjo, guitar, and mandolin from imploding. At least that's my interpretation of it.
 
confused a bit ? here's your own words, " I don't really care for jamming, either. I can do it, "BUT"..." I would rather write, play, and try" to refine" songs and the arrangements to play them in "fun, interesting ways." ? ok I'll be the first to admit i'm by no means a Genious or anything like that, but even I know what you've just described is Jamming ! altering any song to make it more fun/refined/ or interesting is what jamming is all about!
Not really. If I make a new arrangement, I make it in my head and tell people what to do.
 
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one man's "creative, free spirit" jamming away up there is another man's "self-indulgent wanker playing stuff that nobody wants to pay to hear, and not playing it very well."
...
Jam in your basement or garage. the times I've been around "open jam"nights, it's been a strange collection of ego and and mostly mediocrity or outright incompetence; a boiling cauldron of incomprehensible, unlistenable junk.

Sounds like you've seen my band live a few times!
 
It's not jamming I dislike, it's most of the people attracted to it.

Last time I got pulled into a situation the guy running it used it as an excuse for a 15 minute version of "Stranglehold" of which 14:30 of it was him soloing on guitar.

For too many folks they just don't have all that much interesting to do or play and are adamant at taking up as much time as possible doing exactly that.

To do it right there needs to be the understanding of a common language, a physical shorthand and some self-awareness of what it is you are capable of as a musician and what makes for compelling and interesting music.
 
I had a band once that never rehearsed, rarely talked to one another, gigged regularly and even made money. It lasted for about 4 years and then it seemed we ran out of things to say to each other (musically) and it ended. Total improv all the time either on stage or in the studio. Never played the same thing twice. Sounded like this:

http://www.reverbnation.com/p3usa

The most fun I ever had in a band.
Those recordings are awesome!

And they also illustrate the dilemma. I too would love to just play that type of music all the time. I definitely come from a jamming background (and I appreciate the distinctions made above between noodling and jamming). Good jamming is a group experience, a conversation, and usually has some structure, like those songs you posted. When going to see music, that's what I want to see, too, not a bunch of songs played note for note like the group has always played them.

But then, listening to the live tracks in your recordings, you can see at the end that there is a very small crowd listening to the music. A shame because it is so good. But unless you make it big like the Grateful Dead, Phish, etc. (who come more for the scene rather than the music) you usually aren't going to get a huge crowd wanting to see this type of music at your average bar gig.

So our bands play "songs", mostly covers, some originals, because that's what people want to hear. But we try to throw jams in where we can get away with it. Here's one caught on tape; we probably got a little caught up a bit much on this one, but so long as we don't do this to every song we play, we keep getting asked back.

 
Jazz isn't the only place this happens. Bluegrass/Old Timey jams are well known for the, "if you can't hang, get out of the circle" attitude. Not my thing at all. But I'm also not that proficient on any instrument enough to improv in either.

That said, despite being an extremely tight musical format and structure, real old timey/mountain is all about the jam. Maybe not the most adventurous for bass players. But bass is the entire rhythm section, and has to keep all the insanely fast fiddle, banjo, guitar, and mandolin from imploding. At least that's my interpretation of it.
Screwing the bass up on a bluegrass number is a major train wreck. On salsa, it would be pretty bad too.

Yeah, that jazz jam was a cutting session for the big dawgs and he was out of his league.
 
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Those recordings are awesome!

And they also illustrate the dilemma. I too would love to just play that type of music all the time. I definitely come from a jamming background (and I appreciate the distinctions made above between noodling and jamming). Good jamming is a group experience, a conversation, and usually has some structure, like those songs you posted. When going to see music, that's what I want to see, too, not a bunch of songs played note for note like the group has always played them.

But then, listening to the live tracks in your recordings, you can see at the end that there is a very small crowd listening to the music. A shame because it is so good. But unless you make it big like the Grateful Dead, Phish, etc. (who come more for the scene rather than the music) you usually aren't going to get a huge crowd wanting to see this type of music at your average bar gig.

So our bands play "songs", mostly covers, some originals, because that's what people want to hear. But we try to throw jams in where we can get away with it. Here's one caught on tape; we probably got a little caught up a bit much on this one, but so long as we don't do this to every song we play, we keep getting asked back.



I would have enjoyed that extended song if I were present. However I don't really consider soloing within the context of a structured song 'jamming' but instead improvising/soloing over the form. I also prefer the term improvising over jamming but that's mostly semantics. To me a jam-session can be totally unstructured until it finds cohesive structure intuitively and actively (real time). When it works there is a trust that all the musicians involved have a wealth of music experience gained over a lifetime which can be tapped into. Every musician present knows when and why music 'works' and when and why it doesn't and does their best to gravitate to the former and avoid the later. A drummer is first in line to dictate structure as drumming/percussion is inherently structured. In most cases the most 'out-there' jams are being tethered by the drummer, and secondly by the bass player.

The other really important ingredient of a jam session is knowing when to not play. If I have nothing to add or say - I drop out for as long as it takes to reconnect. (or not) Sometimes I'll drop out to let whatever is happening develop w/o being tempted to steer it. Sometimes only a couple players are playing and it sounds perfect like that.

Dynamics are another big deal - some jams can get hellishly loud and crazy but more times than not it comes down to a whisper. Many nights I'll be playing so quietly that I can concentrate on precise articulation/delivery of my input. Nothing like it.
 
I had a band once that never rehearsed, rarely talked to one another, gigged regularly and even made money. It lasted for about 4 years and then it seemed we ran out of things to say to each other (musically) and it ended. Total improv all the time either on stage or in the studio. Never played the same thing twice. Sounded like this:

http://www.reverbnation.com/p3usa


The most fun I ever had in a band.
Excellent work! I was bopping my head up and down while listening. Great bass tone too, what are you playing on She's No Fun?
 
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Excellent work! I was bopping my head up and down while listening. Great bass tone too, what are you playing on She's No Fun?

Thanks Bass Viking!
On She's No Fun I was playing a Jerry Jones longhorn 4 with round wounds through a Sans Amp BDDI. I'm pretty sure that the JJ longhorn is the only bass I used with P3.
Many, many years before P3 I was with a band that would occasionally venture into King Crimson Larks Tongues improv territory. We had a few bright moments doing that style of exercise. Using my '72 Rick 4001 they often sounded like this: The Abduction | St. Elmo's Fire .

And some years after that I was with another band that would occasionally flex some improv muscles with results like this with my Steinberger:
 
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one man's "creative, free spirit" jamming away up there is another man's "self-indulgent wanker playing stuff that nobody wants to pay to hear, and not playing it very well." The times I've been around "open jam"nights, it's been a strange collection of ego and and mostly mediocrity or outright incompetence; a boiling cauldron of incomprehensible, unlistenable junk.

love how you don't mince words.

And I tend to agree with you. Open jams are usually anything but. It's people up there trying to hack their way through well known cover songs -- usually badly -- or some dude that thinks we all want to hear a 20 minute guitar solo. It's public wanking at its finest
 
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I'm sure there are rewarding jams out there, the trouble is I have never found them.

99.99% of the time I have spent jamming just felt like time I would never get back. I am becoming increasingly aware that time is a finite resource for me and there are thousands of other things I would rather be doing than acting as a looper for a guitarist who isn't listening to (or cannot hear) either the drummer or I.
Spot on my man. Jamming is all about listening to what's going on around you and responding to all of the interesting dynamic nuances that are unfolding moment to moment. The best jams are when everybody gives each other a chance to lead spontaneously with an idea or a phrase a rhythm or chord change or a Groove and take the jam forward in a new direction on the fly. Last time I had an actual jam session was about a year ago and it was decent but it was mostly a blues-based jam and the guitar player seem to run out of ideas pretty quickly and had trouble following along with grooves I was coming up with but nonetheless it was fun.