The ethics of Kemper profiling amps

[Selta]

It was said above.
Does the modeler pay royalties?

My engineer friends say it is quicker to pull up a model of an AC30 than to close and distance mic choose where on the cone etc. It sounds really good.

As a musician a model can't respond like the real thing. The math may be the same but if I use a Weber speaker than have I changed the sound of the model? If I go from a maple tongue and groove cab that resonates to a pressboard one have I changed the sound? It can't be accurate in the purest sense. If it's good enough for some folks it is good enough for them. As it responds differently then you have a new and distinct amp.

In theory, each of those differences you ask about would be a different model. That way you could mix and match to your hearts content. Current state of the industry is that they have some models, but not models of every thing. There's quite a few people out there taking models/IRs of various cabs and speakers. From what I can see in the industry, it's mostly going after the big, easy wins. The guy that hears the difference between a tongue and groove versus pressboard? Not as high priority as the thousands who hear difference between blue and greenbacks.

 

[chadds]

In theory, each of those differences you ask about would be a different model. That way you could mix and match to your hearts content. Current state of the industry is that they have some models, but not models of every thing. There's quite a few people out there taking models/IRs of various cabs and speakers. From what I can see in the industry, it's mostly going after the big, easy wins. The guy that hears the difference between a tongue and groove versus pressboard? Not as high priority as the thousands who hear difference between blue and greenbacks.

I worked for a concern that sold Allen digital organs. They had programs so your serious walnut Allen organ could sound just like an organ in a little chapel in the countryside in France. This was cool because it was always in the same place in your house or church. You weren't moving it to different rooms for gigs.

 

[SirMjac28]

Is it the same thing as trying out gear at a GC for the sole purpose of trying it out before you buy online?

 

[eigentone]

Does the modeler pay royalties?

IK Multimedia, makers of Amplitube, is one example of a company that has developed several licensed models in cooperation with amp manufacturers.

If not royalties, some sort of back scratching. I'm assuming some form of payment and/or royalties was involved.

 

[blubass]

One thing I can add, is that the economy has created an environment where consumers purchase products based solely on 2nd hand information because there's just no way to try out gear anymore. If I want to hear an Aguilar amp, for instance, I'm out of luck. I can purchase it and return it, but that's it. No one around here owns an Aguilar, much less knows about them. Purchasing and returning gear has nearly become a standard because of the economic situation. Kemper's haven't replaced any particular piece of gear in the market, because the people that can afford to own one were/are most likely gear addicts anyways, swapping out stuff constantly. Scalping tickets is illegal and considered unethical, but purchasing a rare car and flipping for a profit is considered an astute business transaction. Unless you walk the straight and narrow 24/7, someone has engaged in unethical practice, however minor it may be, at some point in their life. Then, it becomes a personal battle between yourself and hypocrisy. The only way Kemper can do this, AND keep the ethics police appeased, is to pay a licensing fee to every single amp manufacturer in the world. Bye bye profit!

 

[DigitalMan]

As far as "renting" an amp by purchasing it then returning, I'm totally against it.

However, modeling by injecting inputs and recording outputs is clearly not a copyright issue because amplifiers are not covered by copyright law by any stretch of the imagination, and it's probably not a patent issue either. It's exactly the same thing AMD does to make an x86 compatible processor even though Intel holds patents on every processor they make. By having customers do the actual modeling it further insulates the company. I can make a device that has identical start and end points just as long as the sausage factory in the middle is my own unique invention.

 

[ThisBass]

As an electronic engineer with master degree diploma I have some skills in informations and systems theory.
Any real amplifier can be thoretically discribed by an transfer function that captures a snap shot of dsitinct EQ setting and dynamics behaviour, included some time variant characteristic.

The major problem with all kinds of modeling is to predict all kinds of time variant transfere characteristics that are very common and (of course) natural with all kinds of "real" amplifiers.

A snap shoot can't capture all time of variant transfere characteristic that appear when an amplifier is forced on stage to put accros all the tonal facets possible.

Similar thing of request is with circuit based modelings cause not all charecteristics of time variant transfere functions are fully understand by the programmers. Sorry to say, me myself I'm a programmer but also I know that Bessel functions can't fully describe real world physics behavior.

Similar problem is with voicing of cabs cause membrane resonant charctersitic of a distinct speaker sounds best with the speaker itself.
It's very likely often discussed wrongly as "phase issues" but indead different speaker size tends to be different in this regard of resonant vibrating cone areas.
Any neutral flat sounding cab that reinforces a modeling sound will sound different all the time.
BTW lots of bass players surrender this "distinct" voicing of drivers and (unfortnately) clear this field for 6-string sound antics (IMHO).


That said, I regard the Kemper ethic question rather relaxed. It's impossible to trap a sample (or a couple of it) and then "clone" a distinct voicing and performance by 100%.
The big benefit of the Kemper is to provide a wide range of different sounds on stage that come close. But "close" is relative in every respect.
Me personally I'm rather dissapointed the way a Kemper modeling amp sounds on stage.
To me it's boring without any surprise effects, cause the time variant transfere charcteristic is totally missing. As a listener in the audience I very wish to listen to one charcteristic and surprising sound instead of 100 charcterless blank sounds.

Although I regard all kinds of modelings rather relaxed cause "stupid" math can't 100% copy real world existing gear.

I'm more curios with future modeling applications cause it predicts a wide range of NEW sounds that hardly don't exist just this moment.

 

[seamonkey]

A snap shoot can't capture all time of variant transfere characteristic

Where are you getting this? It's not a single snapshot in time. It is over an interval of time. Listen to a Kemper doing it's profile. For software modeling, it absolutely is able to take a time domain into account.

+1 on the "New Sounds" that do not yet exist. It takes a few pioneers to break people away from what sounds "familiar" to accepting new sound. Happens throughout history. One major leap was synths.

 

[eigentone]

I'm guessing ThisBass means: It's an approximation to use impulse responses to represent time varying systems -- like simplifying an equation with pretty similar results.

But he should clarify his words for you.

 

[ThisBass]

Where are you getting this? It's not a single snapshot in time. It is over an interval of time. Listen to a Kemper doing it's profile. For software modeling, it absolutely is able to take a time domain into account.

In my undersanding the "time intervall" is the distinct snap shoot cause there is no improved signal information with any longer time duration.
It all depends what kind of signal information is captured. It can't capture all kinds of time variant characteristic a random amplifier can provide at all kinds of EQ and drive settings,
distinct random playing styles of player combine with "unexpected" different voicing due to time variant transfere characteristic.

 

[seamonkey]

In my undersanding the "time intervall" is the distinct snap shoot cause there is no improved signal information with any longer time duration.
It all depends what kind of signal information is captured. It can't be all kinds of time variant characteristic a random amplifier can provide at all kinds of EQ and drive settings.

Take "sag" for example. Modeler developers absolutely know about sag, how to capture it, and how to reproduce it. It happens over time.

Most impulse responses are sine sweeps nowadays. Several sweeps at different volume levels. For example listen to a Kemper doing it's thing.

 

[peterpalmieri]

While I am reading this with open mind, the more I read the more I want to play a passive bass through a tube amp.

 

[ThisBass]

While I am reading this with open mind, the more I read the more I want to play a passive bass through a tube amp.

it does not change anything on principles.

 

[ThisBass]

Take "sag" for example. Modeler developers absolutely know about sag, how to capture it, and how to reproduce it. It happens over time.

Most impulse responses are sine sweeps nowadays. Several sweeps at different volume levels. For example listen to a Kemper doing it's thing.

Impulse response is the "theory" but it is impractical in implementaion. In practice there is rather intake of a known "noise" and then (re)calculate the impulse response.

The "sag" is a very good point. I just remind on that a "splitted" pre/power device don't sound the same like an "identcal" full tube head.
Transformers are not memory free at some point, no idea if (or the way how) programers take care of this ...

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Kemper's haven't replaced any particular piece of gear in the market, because the people that can afford to own one were/are most likely gear addicts anyways, swapping out stuff constantly.

That's probably true. I can't imagine cats who plink around with their friends once a month in the jam room are Kemper's primary target demographic.

 

[danosix]

Do certain companies set themselves up for it? Yes. But it costs these companies money to allow such liberal return policies where you can buy a $5000 rig only to return it in a few days when you're done with it. But actually, it doesn't cost the companies all that much...it costs consumers that much when the cost of khazers doing stuff like that is built into their prices to offset those who view the music store as a lending library. It's one thing to buy something and return it if you don't like it. It's another to buy stuff with the full intention of returning it when you're done with it. It may be legal but that doesn't make it right.

Right you are, Jimmy (again).
People seem to think (and increasingly it seems that if it's "legal", it's right. They are NOT the same thing.
Also, DOES the law require a return policy? I know in Canada there is no legal requirement for taking returns - companies just do it because it would be bad business NOT to take returns under reasonable circumstances.

 

[JimmyM]

US law requires a warranty but not a return policy.

 

[synaesthesia]

Nothing new here. Akai samplers in the 80s were already there, confronted with this issue.

 

[The Terror]

It's interesting. What would you have Kemper owners do, say to copy the Fender Twin ? Ask around locally to see if you can borrow one from somebody ? Or, actually go out and buy a Twin, copy it, and then try to resell it ? Of course, people are going to get a new Twin and return it; it's the easiest way to do it. On the one hand you have Kemper who came up with this technology, basically saying, " Hey everybody, no need to go out and buy a bunch of different amps anymore, just copy them into our devise and be done with it." On the other hand you have the Kemper owner who now says, " Well how the hell am I gonna copy that Ampeg unless I go buy one and return it afterwards ? "

So, it seems you are saying that because certain conduct is the easiest way to go, it is therfore ethical? Really?

Not sure I would want to try to defend that position.

I remain, etc.,

The Terror.

 

[chadds]

I can't. Pay people for their work.
Stop copying. Innovate.

Look at film. How many Hulks, reboots of Spider-Man, King Kongs, Manchurian Candidate, etc. etc. do we need? Hollywood's fear to risk money on new scripts keeps people dumb. How many shows about reality? That naked couple was in peril with a complete crew, helicopter and caterer right behind the camera? Yet we eat that crap every week! Now it's a country influencing our election? How? Because we believe everything on social media. The problem is us.

On point, do what the rest of us do. Do with what you have. Learn to play that guitar better, rent or borrow the vintage amp you need. There is a studio in MD that is a museum of old amps for use. That can't be the only one in America. Are we so impatient? Or if we don't have it do with out.

Watch "Please Be Kind, Rewind."