The Great Bass Preamp/DI Comparison

[scubaduba]

I've never owned or tested an Broughton P15, but I owned and gigged with a Arkham Oracle for quite awhile. The Oracle is very good. And I'd say the preamp DI on the PF-50T is very similar to the DI out on other full voltage tube preamp pedals like the Noble, Oracle, Tube Injection, etc.

The difference the PF-50 brings is the big softball sized output transformer that gets nice and warm as it's pushed by two 6L6 tube which can also be used to keep your coffee warm if you sit it on top of the tube cage.

The preamp section is the bulk of the tone, but the power section is the "feel". I really can't pin it down as far as terms are concerned. It's something you can hear, but you can feel it when you play. It's like it has life to it. It breathes and moves with you. That's probably a stupid description. I will make some clips some time this week.

When you consider the price....at full retail it's $1000...if you can find one in stock. I bought my used for a few hundred less than retail. The money I paid for the PF-50 is far less than even a used Noble is selling for. It's less than the Oracle is selling for. It's less than a REDDI is selling for. I only paid about $200 more for the PF-50 than I did for my used Tube Injection.

The handicap for the PF-50 is the size and weight. It's not a pedal. It's also about 20lbs...which for a tube amp is a featherweight. I bought a full set of tubes for it to have on hand just in case....better to have and not need, than need and not have. The tubes alone were $200.

I don't think I'd ever gig with it just because a beer dumped on the hot tubes would cost more cash than I'd probably make on the gig. But for home recording or playing in church, it would be fantastic and not so big and heavy that it's cumbersome to transport.

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I'd be curious to hear how the PF-50 compares to the JT Amplification Alpha which uses 2 12AX7 tubes by default. It has a warmth and breadth to it that reminds me of tube amps. Definitely a wider sound stage than the Noble, to my ear anyway.

 

[chadhargis]

I'd be curious to hear how the PF-50 compares to the JT Amplification Alpha which uses 2 12AX7 tubes by default. It has a warmth and breadth to it that reminds me of tube amps. Definitely a wider sound stage than the Noble, to my ear anyway.

That would be interesting. The cool think about the PF-50 is that you can hear just the preamp tubes, or you can hear all the tubes....just depends on which DI you plug in to. The EQs wouldn't be an apples to apples comparison.

It's a good time to be a bass player, that's for sure. So many great pieces of gear out there.

 

[Chace90]

It reminds me a lot of the Noble...and it should...it's got two 12AX7 tubes just like the Noble. But the transformer out has a warmth and a dynamic that I really can describe...but you can hear it.

In case anyone wasn't aware, the Noble uses ECC82 tubes, one for the DI out and one for the instrument out. I'm no authority, but my understanding is they really don't distort easily. Warm and dynamic though, for sure!

 

[chadhargis]

In case anyone wasn't aware, the Noble uses ECC82 tubes, one for the DI out and one for the instrument out. I'm no authority, but my understanding is they really don't distort easily. Warm and dynamic though, for sure!

Ah...so a 12AU7 tube. Less gain than a 12AX7.

 

[Mr. Business]

I've never owned or tested an Broughton P15, but I owned and gigged with a Arkham Oracle for quite awhile. The Oracle is very good. And I'd say the preamp DI on the PF-50T is very similar to the DI out on other full voltage tube preamp pedals like the Noble, Oracle, Tube Injection, etc.

The difference the PF-50 brings is the big softball sized output transformer that gets nice and warm as it's pushed by two 6L6 tube which can also be used to keep your coffee warm if you sit it on top of the tube cage.

The preamp section is the bulk of the tone, but the power section is the "feel". I really can't pin it down as far as terms are concerned. It's something you can hear, but you can feel it when you play. It's like it has life to it. It breathes and moves with you. That's probably a stupid description. I will make some clips some time this week.

When you consider the price....at full retail it's $1000...if you can find one in stock. I bought my used for a few hundred less than retail. The money I paid for the PF-50 is far less than even a used Noble is selling for. It's less than the Oracle is selling for. It's less than a REDDI is selling for. I only paid about $200 more for the PF-50 than I did for my used Tube Injection.

The handicap for the PF-50 is the size and weight. It's not a pedal. It's also about 20lbs...which for a tube amp is a featherweight. I bought a full set of tubes for it to have on hand just in case....better to have and not need, than need and not have. The tubes alone were $200.

I don't think I'd ever gig with it just because a beer dumped on the hot tubes would cost more cash than I'd probably make on the gig. But for home recording or playing in church, it would be fantastic and not so big and heavy that it's cumbersome to transport.

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I don't think your description is stupid at all. I've always described tube tone as being more organic. Like having breath and feel to it. Alive!

 

[chadhargis]

I don't think your description is stupid at all. I've always described tube tone as being more organic. Like having breath and feel to it. Alive!

I run a digital rig that has a fine tube tone...but it's the same tone whether you are digging in and playing hard, laying back, playing short punchy notes, or long sustained ones...the tone is good...but it's the same.

The real tube power section reacts differently to how you play. Play hard and you get rewarding with a nice "bloom" to the note. Almost like it's lagging being your request a bit..."Oh...you want to play loud...hold on let me make that happen for you". It's not sharp and pointed like solid state amps. It's a pillowey tone that's warm and round. So good. If you play softer, you get nice clarity and detail. You can play high up the neck and it's not shrill or clanky. It's just smooth and nice.

It's really hard to explain it and it could be my perception of it as the red glow of the tubes, the smell of hot electronics, and the feel of the heat coming off of it add to the in person experience that won't translate to a recording.

 

[carsonchilders]

Humm....I love API gear, but their last bass pedal was underwhelming and they discontinued it. Now they have launched a new bass preamp...with no XLR or even a balanced TRS that you can use a converter on to get you to the board. So they want you to pony up $300 for an analog 3 band EQ then you have to purchase a DI.

I'm thinking this is a miss. Of course, I'd love to try one and when I start seeing them show up used I might pick one up just to test it.

I thought the same thing. I'm actually working on a YouTube video review. Because of that, I reached out to API about a few questions about their CMP Compressor and LLX pedal.

They said "The main reason for the exclusion of a DI output is the form factor. The old LX pedals used a slightly different transformer that allowed for sending both balanced and unbalanced outputs. By using a different transformer we are able to fit everything in the smaller footprint and deliver the desired sonic characteristics, and also streamline manufacturing by using the same transformers and chassis as the CMP and GTR pedals. This allows us to pack a lot of features in these pedals and keep them at a more attractive pricepoint."

Also, I really really like the LLX. First, the fact that it has a really unique cool drive is the biggest selling point for me. The second thing is I really like the response of the 2k knob ESPECIALLY with the narrow Q option. That lets me get a super cool sound with lots of articulation without adding hiss. To me, the 2k control and the sound of the drive (which I leave always on) is the reason to buy this pedal.

 

[Btbp]

Yeah, I had a Broughton SSDI a while back that I foolishly sold. It had that difficult-to-quantify "heft" and "feel" that we so often talk about. I think it was largely due to the ginormous metal transformer. You can't recreate that kind of feel or response with a digital anything. I don't care who you are. I may need to pick up a P15 some day, just for poops and giggles. Because I don't studio these days. I mostly gig . . . when I do anything. And yes, I wouldn't want something that costs $1,000 sitting on the floor waiting to have beer or jello shots dumped on it.

So, having owned and liked it, would you forego getting another SSDI over P15?

 

[jacoby75]

So, having owned and liked it, would you forego getting another SSDI over P15?

Well, that's a tricky hypothetical question. My play money is very limited. I typically have to sell stuff to buy other stuff. If I didn't need the money at the time, I never would have sold the SSDI. It wasn't because I didn't love it. If my expendable income was more prolific, I would own both, because they are different enough. If I happen to have a significant amount of expendable income again in the future, or decide to sell a bass or something to raise the cash, I might buy a P15 if one comes up for a good price used, just because I haven't tried one. If money were no object, I'd rather have both.

Edit: In all of the preamps/amps I have owned and played over the years, Ampeg tends to be my flavor of choice. (The one exception being the Aguilar DB751, which is an absolute beast. Got to play one of those at a fly gig once and it changed my life.) So I'd probably lean towards buying a P15 next. But the Broughton SVPre into the SSDI was just glorious. Better than the SSDI by itself, IMHO. So if/when I had an SSDI again, I probably wouldn't use it alone. I'd have some sort of Ampeg flavored pedal feeding it.

 

[chadhargis]

As promised, here is a clip of the Ampeg PF-50T transformer DI out. I've also included links to the previous sound clips from my other rigs.

In my humble opinion, the PF-50 smokes them all by a LONG shot. This thing is really good.

Oddly enough, the Pod Go gets the closest to it out of them all. It should also be said that there is nothing in the signal path to the PF-50. No compressor, no EQ, no HPF...nothing. That's JUST the tone of the PF-50 all by itself.

 

[SteveC]

I'm surprised how "tubey" the Pod Go comes to the Ampeg.

 

[chadhargis]

I'm surprised how "tubey" the Pod Go comes to the Ampeg.

Yes! The Pod Go really blew me away. I picked it up used on Reverb (there are tons of them) and I wasn't expecting much. Figured I'd play with it and flip it. But it's really very good. Granted, you have to take the time to tweak it and play with it, but you can get a just about any tone out of you might want. It's all driven by the Helix code. The only difference is it has less processing power, so it can't run as many effects or some of the more DSP hungry ones. But for bass, I'm rarely running many "pedal" in the Pod Go. I typically only run a tube amp sim, EQ, and compressor. I have the global high and low pass set so they don't take up a slot.

 

[SteveC]

Yes! The Pod Go really blew me away. I picked it up used on Reverb (there are tons of them) and I wasn't expecting much. Figured I'd play with it and flip it. But it's really very good. Granted, you have to take the time to tweak it and play with it, but you can get a just about any tone out of you might want. It's all driven by the Helix code. The only difference is it has less processing power, so it can't run as many effects or some of the more DSP hungry ones. But for bass, I'm rarely running many "pedal" in the Pod Go. I typically only run a tube amp sim, EQ, and compressor. I have the global high and low pass set so they don't take up a slot.

I've been tempted to try one. But I so love my Empress/REDDI rig it would take a lot to replace it. Waiting for the upcoming Bergantino pedal as well.

 

[Ethereal Thorn]

I think the only thing to dethrone my mesa subway di+ is if they come out with a tube version or someone does a pedal pre with tube power stage like the swr iod pre. I'm still thinking the JT Amps Alpha di can get me there paired with the mesa tho we shall see. If anyone has one and wants to trade for a Gk mb fusion 500 hit me up lol

 

[tombowlus]

I just received a Palmer Pocket Bass Amp in for review, and this thing packs a ton of features into a rather small package. The price is also rather small. I played through it briefly at practice last night, and it seemed to work as advertised, with no obvious flaws thus far. Great feature set, though, for sure!

 

[SteveC]

Wow. That's a nice little box for $180. Is Palmer the company that makes (made) the speaker emulators that Geddy Lee used for his first no backline, DI rigs?

 

[scubaduba]

I think the only thing to dethrone my mesa subway di+ is if they come out with a tube version or someone does a pedal pre with tube power stage like the swr iod pre. I'm still thinking the JT Amps Alpha di can get me there paired with the mesa tho we shall see. If anyone has one and wants to trade for a Gk mb fusion 500 hit me up lol

I highly recommend the JT Amps Alpha and I've been through a lot of tube preamps.

 

[Btbp]

I just received a Palmer Pocket Bass Amp in for review, and this thing packs a ton of features into a rather small package. The price is also rather small. I played through it briefly at practice last night, and it seemed to work as advertised, with no obvious flaws thus far. Great feature set, though, for sure!

I switch between this and the Messenger v3 for a headphone amp, they both have their pluses. I find the sims helpful on the Palmer and the tone shaping unintuituve but I can usually get a set and forget sound.

 

[Ethereal Thorn]

I highly recommend the JK Amps Alpha and I've been through a lot of tube preamps.

I'm thinking this should do the trick to get abit more of the feel a full blown tube rig while using my pedalboard rig. With the JT Amps Alpha pre/di having the large cinemag transformer and tube output stage I think it while add some of that bloom then when paired with the mesa di+ for it's tone shaping eq /hpf and gain, two notes torpedo cab m+ with tube power amp simulation and cab impulses, sushi box deep dish compressor to add some extra tube warmth to the preamp stage as well as some soft limiting I think it will be pretty close the only thing that might get it the rest of the way would be something a 1 watt power stage with a tube like the swr iod preamp used I'm still trying my best to pressure senior sushi to design one. Unless I'm mistaken and the Alpha will already achieve the same effect of course.

 

[never-enough]

I highly recommend the JK Amps Alpha and I've been through a lot of tube preamps.

I haven't tried the Alpha but I have full confidence that it is a top shelf piece of gear. The designer is no slouch.
I have a two channel tube overdrive pedal (dual 12ax7s) he built about 22 years ago and it's still my favorite od pedal I've ever used. (JT Pedals Valveboy)

he was the lead tech at the Mesa boogie store in Hollywood for a looong time, he's more than capable around complicated circuits, and from my experience a great human being to boot.

I'd like to give the Alpha a try one of these days.