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Double Bass The Real Book

I don't know, there are tunes I've played countless times and I still seem to find new things to play, new ways to think through the tune, little epiphanies about where it could go, new discoveries. I don't think I'm the only one. Sure there are stock things to play that work and devices and go to things but I'm always trying to move beyond that and create some music! :hiding:
 
I don't know, there are tunes I've played countless times and I still seem to find new things to play, new ways to think through the tune, little epiphanies about where it could go, new discoveries. I don't think I'm the only one. Sure there are stock things to play that work and devices and go to things but I'm always trying to move beyond that and create some music! :hiding:

Amen.
 
I am sure that most of us have witnessed the scenario that Ed describes, of someone with their nose stuck in the RB and responding to nothing going on around them, often enough to know that it happens pretty regularly and is a real downside to reading RB charts on gigs. It tends to happen with younger less experienced players. Learning to get off of the chart as soon as possible, recognizing the significant points and being open to and aware of options in the harmony takes experience and listening to what is going on. Yes, knowing standards is important and makes most gigs much easier. And although you should be able to get through a gig of standards with out the RB, I just have not had the experience that just because someone has a book on the stand the playing will necessarily be bad (side note here just to be clear, I have not carried a RB with me to gigs for at least 20 years). It just means that they don't know a lot of standards. The quality of the playing depends on who you're playing with more than the tunes you are playing IME.

On the other hand as an example of the bad things that can happen without a chart.... There is a bass player that occasionally comes into a jam session here and sits in. He never uses a book, he never asks questions about a tune or seems to even admit he doesn't know something. He plays by ear, responds to what he hears going on around him and is not stuck pounding away on an arbitrary set of changes. He also quite often sounds terrible. I have heard him struggle through at least 15 choruses of a tune and never once figure out the first four bars of the bridge. You could argue that he will get better at it, but he has been sounding like this for years. I would much rather hear him play tunes he knows, or read what he doesn't know from the RB. At least he would be in the ballpark.

Recently I played a singer showcase (you don't want to know how many of those I do.... let's say it's lots) with one of the most respected piano players around here. I love playing with him and he sounds incredible. Knows a lot of tunes and transposes them easily. I learn new things from him and his way around harmony every time we play together. At the gig one of the singers came up with a chart for something neither of us knew. The chart was in C, she wanted us in Eb, but it was a pretty simple chart and I figured we were good to go. The pianist however, who is an absolutely wonderful player refused on the spot because he didn't know the tune. Talking with him later he admitted that he really can't transpose on sight well at all and only reads marginally well to begin with and he was afraid of sounding bad. It hardly seemed fair, I spent the whole night feeling bad about my playing because his harmonic sense is so much more advanced than mine, and he wouldn't go ahead and sound bad when he had the chance.


I think the point for me is that we all have strengths and weaknesses. I know that no matter how much time I spend learning tunes, I will still play with players who know more of them. No matter how good my reading, there will be others who read better, others with better ears, more facility, etc. And others who don't do some of those things as well as I do. I also know that we all learn differently, some are more visual, some more intuitive, some very aural, but we are all a mix of those things. The idea of internalizing things (as opposed to memorizing them) is a good one, and people doing it in whichever way works best for them makes sense to me, even if it means they use the RB sometimes.

BTW, I really liked the links that Ed posted and John's blog posts. Thanks for those.
 
Ever notice how REAL BOOK players all sound the same?
I stopped using the book years ago. I found that if I used it I played the same way all the time. If didn't use it I could sense where to go anyway because I knew the intervals. Without the BOOK I also was free to "get modal" and try new approaches and ideas that ultimately helped to develop a unique style.
If you have been using the book for more than a year it is holding you back.
Break away my brothers
 
Yeah the arguments for a binary world - chart vs ears is a false premise

And having a book open for form reference & the 'most likely' harmonization is no crime

We're not all geniuses with 12 hrs a day to practice. Instead of worrying about book v ears, the real point is that ear-training is a good thing to strive for.

I don't about you but even when a rare tune gets called I cheat the first time through the form and then try to play with as little assistance as possible to 'stay in. ' The moment' and listen to the interaction with others.

I can't remember when I 'kept my nose' in the book through a tune except maybe a musical or highly arranged large ensemble material.
 
I am sure that most of us have witnessed the scenario that Ed describes, of someone with their nose stuck in the RB and responding to nothing going on around them, often enough to know that it happens pretty regularly and is a real downside to reading RB charts on gigs...

I have seen that kind of behaviour at workshops and jams - but I have never seen it at a professional gig where I was in the audience and I think I would walk out if I saw that.

Over the last 15-20 years, I have walked out on 2-3 Jazz gigs - but not for that.
 
There's one definite advantage to memorization. You can practice away from the instrument. If you know how the melody goes, you can analyze and study the relationships in your head. For those of us that have day gigs, it means that we can turn idle time into productive practice time in between other tasks. Like while driving a car, walking down the street, riding the bus, yard work, etc. Stuff that you can do with automaticity that allows your mind to think about something else.

You can work out visualizations for fingerings in your head and well as internalizing it even further. You can't do that if the music is trapped on a piece of paper.

I've done it the other way too, where I learned tunes by looking at the changes for Joy Spring on my phone, sang it out on my head, memorized the changes, and practiced it through visualization. By the time I got back to the bass, I pretty much had it down.
 
There's one definite advantage to memorization. You can practice away from the instrument. If you know how the melody goes, you can analyze and study the relationships in your head. For those of us that have day gigs, it means that we can turn idle time into productive practice time in between other tasks. Like while driving a car, walking down the street, riding the bus, yard work, etc. Stuff that you can do with automaticity that allows your mind to think about something else.

You can work out visualizations for fingerings in your head and well as internalizing it even further. You can't do that if the music is trapped on a piece of paper.

I've done it the other way too, where I learned tunes by looking at the changes for Joy Spring on my phone, sang it out on my head, memorized the changes, and practiced it through visualization. By the time I got back to the bass, I pretty much had it down.
+1 Further, by the time I can sing the melody, I have the tune memorized, and I find that my intonation suffers if I can't sing them.
 
There is a limit to how much data you can fully 'internalize' or memorize.

So, while Joy Spring might be top of mind today, something you mastered 10 yrs ago will need some revisiting.

I think the REALLY valuable skill (on top of ear training generally) is the experience to know/recognize relationships & patterns - much is obvious and then the deviations jump out and challenge the ear. It's much easier to work with smaller bits (turnarounds for example) and apply them appropriately than memorization of 150 x 12 keys - not enough RAM for that.

Lots of time just listening too. I feel sorry for younger folks (not really) who haven't had the rich exposure to these forms as SONGS instead of some abstract hieroglyphs from ancient times.

I'll turn on Pandora or some other shuttle type service while doing other things and no matter how out the version I'm still amazed at how many, 100s of tunes, that I immediately know the name, melody & words to. Versions I've never heard.
 
For me, I think that's the ultimate goal. Internalization of tunes and and vocabulary is just a stepping stone in which we establish relationships between melodies and the harmony that supports them to the point of automaticity. That way there is less to remember, as well as being able to identify the proper harmony for a new melody in real time. "Aural cognition", if you will. To be able to converse spontaenously in a harmonic and rhythmic context without limitation, regardless of the musical situation. That's really shooting for the moon.

Is there a limit to human memory and what is it? I don't think anybody knows what the true limits are, and given different modalities of learning, maybe anything is possible. Memorizing something intellectually is only one path of many. In speech, we all know probably hundreds of words (maybe even thousands?) and none need much practice to recall them because they've become so internalized it takes little effort.

There's definitely something about music that steps outside of the normal boundaries for human memory too. Pick any Beatles tune and even those who are not musicians will be able to likely give you every lyric, rhythmic hit, and instrumentation. They didn't study it at all. They really didn't really listen to it deeply, yet they hear it in their heads clearly and it's unmistakable to them. It's a really interesting phenomena. Something about particular songs that it creeps in and takes hold.

That's also the power of the commercial jingle. Sometimes, jingle will bury itself in your consciousness without permission. One listen and you could be stuck singing it for the rest of your day (maybe even your life) - even if you hate it.

Plip plop fizz fizz....
 
It is also cool when you see Jarrett or Konitz and they can improvise the set list without the fumbling through the books.

There is really no argument that to play that music on a high level you need to have a couple sets worth of songs memorized. You should also be able to hear through a song you don't know. Nobody is going to read a tune as good as PW, Ed or Matt Brewer using their ears.
 
It is also cool when you see Jarrett or Konitz and they can improvise the set list without the fumbling through the books.

There is really no argument that to play that music on a high level you need to have a couple sets worth of songs memorized. You should also be able to hear through a song you don't know. Nobody is going to read a tune as good as PW, Ed or Matt Brewer using their ears.

The top names in the game don't wing it, they actually rehearse.
 
A BIG +1 on the rehearsals

Trust me even KJ rehearses his sets for a solo gig

He might throw himself a curveball at the last minute for fun but when you have a rep to maintain (sic $$) you provide a quality product

All the 'showing up & calling tunes' crap has damaged jazz
 
These guys, however great, put their pants on the sane

What they play is what's top of mind, what they've been playing around with at the time

If there's a trio or quartet involved they're given most of the tunes

Don't confuse improvising on a tune with pulling tunes out of your a$$