• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass The Real Book

#261
Phil Smith said:
The top names in the game don't wing it, they actually rehearse.
Click to expand...

I've worked with Lee Konitz quite a bit over the years. The way he likes to play a gig is to go on stage and have someone start a tune — not play the melody — just start a tune, any tune. Then the band starts to collectively solo, Lee might be in the foreground, or the lead instrument might be the bass, piano or drums. He may or may not play the melody to the song at all. It's just a vehicle for improvising.

Lee doesn't ever make a set list, rehearse, or talk about what the band might play before going on stage. At least for his quartet gigs. He literally just goes on stage and starts playing. When the first tune is finished, he might turn to one of the other musicians and say 'you got it.' He doesn't say what to play (there's no set list, no rehearsal, and no preconceived instructions) — I could start any tune, and that would be the tune we would play. Or the piano player, or drummer, or Lee would start the next tune. After that tune, someone starts the next tune . . . and so on.

The other thing that Lee does a lot now is collectively solo — or more aptly put, no one is ever soloing. Everyone is improvising on the same form, and one instrument will come more into the foreground, and then another voice — back and forth. He is completely removed from the typical head-solo-solo-head format.

I've also done big band projects where Lee is the featured soloist — a couple of different projects in the last two years, and two other projects many years ago. The big band obviously rehearsed the charts. Once Lee reads through a chart once or twice and has a handle on where the chart is going, he doesn't look at the charts again at all — basically playing what sounds right to him in the moment.
 
#262
A short Lee Konitz story:

I first met Lee in about 1981 or so. I was playing a jam session at a building in Manhattan that had a lot of practice studios. We were just playing trio, going through tunes. There was a knock on the door, and it was Lee Konitz — he asked if he could play a couple of tunes with us. None of us knew him, and he had no idea who we were. he just heard us from the hallway.

We were stunned, because we were just jamming, and all of a sudden this jazz legend shows up. I think we played 'The Song Is You' and 'All The Things.'

Lee just loves to play — he still does at age 85.
 
#264
Point is, guys like Konitz improvise the set list. Just like completely free music, the interaction, the feeling in the room decides the density, speed, volume of the set as it progresses. You take stock of the ground covered and either contrast it or continue in that vein.

The same thing applies to a standards gig where everyone really hears that music.

BTW, I'd love to hear a Konitz small group with Mr. John Goldsby!!
 
#267
Phil Smith said:
I'm not sure if you're making a point or just telling a story chop_1992.
Click to expand...

If you're not sure Phil, then I guess a point was not made.

When Damon mentioned Lee Konitz, you responded:
The top names in the game don't wing it, they actually rehearse.
Click to expand...

So,

I was writing—from my personal experience on the bandstand—what I've encountered when working with Lee Konitz.

My point is: Lee doesn't rehearse for quartet gigs—at least the ones I've done with him. There are no charts. There is no set list. Everything is created and decided in the moment on the bandstand. He just starts playing. It's a wonderful experience.
 
#268
That's very interesting John - it sounds like what Wayne Shorter does with his quartet - they just seem to play with no prior discussion or rehearsal. When he played at Brighton, friends who are Buddhists told me that he engaged in some Buddhist meditation before the gig - not sure if that counts as "rehearsal" !? :p
 
#269
chop_1992 said:
Lee doesn't ever make a set list, rehearse, or talk about what the band might play before going on stage. At least for his quartet gigs. He literally just goes on stage and starts playing.
Click to expand...

I played with him a couple of years ago on a featured concert at the University, and this was my experience as well. We were a little surprised that there was no rehearsal, but just took it as a sign that he trusted us. We asked what he wanted to do with the time we had set aside for rehearsal, and he wanted us to take him to lunch, where we talked about everything BUT music.

I've been doing a little duo gig on Saturday nights here in town where the piano player - an older gentleman I've known for many years - knows about 2 million tunes. He has charts for some, but the folder is so disorganized that sometimes he can't find them. Many times he'll start one that I don't really know, and if I give him a quizzical look, we'll still play it but he'll guide me through it the first chorus or so as we play. For all but the most complicated tunes, this is a really fun exercise. It's all really just a conversation, and on those tunes where he knows all the minutiae of the changes and I can only remember the big picture elements it just feels like we're speaking in a dialect where he's a native speaker and I have an accent. No big deal. We can still talk. :)
 
#271
chop_1992 said:
If you're not sure Phil, then I guess a point was not made.

When Damon mentioned Lee Konitz, you responded:


So,

I was writing—from my personal experience on the bandstand—what I've encountered when working with Lee Konitz.

My point is: Lee doesn't rehearse for quartet gigs—at least the ones I've done with him. There are no charts. There is no set list. Everything is created and decided in the moment on the bandstand. He just starts playing. It's a wonderful experience.
Click to expand...

Thanks for clearing that up...

When I say:

The top names in the game don't wing it, they actually rehearse.
Click to expand...

in response to:

The same guys can and do improvise whole sets of music with no tunes. The important thing is they know how to improvise, they value improvisation, hence the lack of charts.
Click to expand...

I'm making the point that the presence or non presence of charts doesn't diminish the performers ability to improvise or reflects their values on improvisation.

Case in point:

 
#272
jeffbonny said:
Ok lemme get this straight. You're crapping on John Goldsby for telling Lee Konitz stories???
The "point" I took is if you wanna play with Lee Konitz (and possibly others of his stature and frame of mind) a fake book won't be of much use.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to crap on anyone, this is a discussion, John Goldsby is a person not a god and I assume if he's posting here he's engaging in a discussion.

There are many players of stature all with different frames of mind and approaches. My point and the point others have made that it isn't "this" or "that".
 
#273
I've been following this discussion with interest and in places some disbelief. I play with three regular bands; one reads from charts and the other two have a well practised repertoire. But like countless DB players I freelance and turn up for a gig with no prior rehearsal, as I did yesterday. These bands will be comprised of anything from three to six pieces usually. As yesterday the sax on lead knew in advance roughly what he was going to play but I and the piano player came with a few cribs. Most of the time we could play from experience of the standards but from time to time a number was called that I hadn't played for a long time. No problems, except that there was the odd chord often that started the middle eight for example that was perhaps a bit unfamiliar. That is where my crib came in, a small A5 book that I have distilled from no less than 12 different real/fake books that I have on a computer disc. No doubt in a year or so I'll get up to date a get an iPad.

The point I'm trying to make is that if I'm called for a gig I'm expected to do the best job and that is greatly assisted by having some chords - just in case. I don't read much of the time but take a sneaky peak from my little book.
 
#275
This thread is amusing at times.

Anyways, thanks for the awesome Lee Konitz stories, John and DURRL. I'm a huge fan of Mr. Konitz. I forget if he does, but I assume that Warne Marsh will be somewhat similar towards music as is most of Tristano's students and their apprentices. i think in his book he states that sometimes he likes to play with students and people that he normally wouldn't get a chance to play with. Reminds me of any sporting great who's in love with his sport and will play with just about anyone who's willing.

And those that have recorded with Konitz are going to be able hang with his style of play would also be likely to do the same: Brad Mehldau, Charlie Haden, Bill Frisell, Alan Broadbent, Red Mitchell, Mr. Goldsby, etc. Top flight? I'd say so. Regardless, I don't think you can get much more top flight than being one of Charlie Parker's contemporaries. Someone that Bird would go head to head with in Downbeat's polls back in the day and was part of Miles "Birth of Cool" album.

Anyone interested in Konitz or Marsh should check out their books. "Conversations on the Improviser's Art" and "Unsung Cat" respectively. I started a book review thread on Konitz' book - I got a lot out of reading it. The best chapter in the book is available for free here:
http://www.pointofdeparture.org/PoD11/PoD11BookCooks_Hamilton.html
 
#276
Here's a good quote from that excerpt:
Lee Konitz said:
I think most people who play professionally want to do a good job, and prepare as much as possible to do that. I do in my way, but that's my way of preparation - to not be prepared. We talk about learning every change that existed, every inversion, every lick. And then when you play you forget about what you practised and try to really invent something for the moment, according to what the rhythm's playing, according to the acoustics, the audience, how you feel at the moment, and so on. And certainly I don't do it all the time. When I get in trouble, for acoustic reasons, or because it's the wrong band for me, or whatever, I have to rely on what I know more. And that's less satisfying, but necessary, certainly.

I wish, at times, that I could have a readily available vocabulary to use on less inspiring occasions; but it would be too easy to rely on that.

Shelly Manne once joked that "The guy was so hip he never played the same solo once"!
Click to expand...
Sounds like Zen to me.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back