The time has come! Markbass MegaThread!

[vision]

I understood the story. I just missed the part where you mentioned that you, "compared it to ___________"

Why does he have to compare it to directly something else to know if it sounds good? That doesn't make sense.

 

[JayAmel]

No one said that they're unusable, that's your individual call. I said that your full signal isn't getting through, there's a distinct bass roll off and some impedance mojo happening. Throw on the headphones and tell me what you think.

Surprisingly, that's also what I experienced at my first gig with the LMII. A big amount of treble dominating the signal thru the DI out. Actually too much treble (and even more actually, not enough lows, since this is the real problem), so I finally don't use the MarkBass DI and my signal is taken out of the direct out of my UHF system (which means it is a sort of pre signal, not post). But this way, the soundman can do his job pretty well on the PA. Same for the engineer who manages the stage monitors.

 

[marc40a]

Why does he have to compare it to directly something else to know if it sounds good? That doesn't make sense.

Because, it's very difficult to tell if something is missing without having a reference - especially with regard to the frequency spectrum and audio. Human's aural memory is horrendous and our hearing is naturally biased towards upper freqs.

An A/B with a known reference provides objective vs. subjective information.

I prefer the former because because I had a soundman/bandleader in a tizzy and a screwdriver to my amp onstage while on a professional gig - knock on wood that I didn't lose one of those screws. I was thinking that either he was crazy or that he didn't even know what a flat bass signal sounded like. I didn't want to believe him.

I had to take matters into my own hands the next day and test it vs. something that I know passes my full signal. It turns out that he was totally right. I text messaged him that night, "You were right about that DI. Won't happen again."

If I had known beforehand everything would've gone much smoother. I would've acknowledged the lack of fundamentals and bumped the bass up on my onboard pre or not gone to the gig w/ my jumper set pre-EQ or I would've brought a DI.

If you depend on your gear and your sound for work, you should know it inside and out. There are standards in this industry and you should know how your gear performs vs. these standards.

 

[marc40a]

Explain the need for this comparison?

This may sound crazy but in my world I don't have to compare something to something else to know whether or not it's doing exactly what I want it to. I heard firsthand several bassists though a rig I'm very familiar with onstage, through FOH driven by the LMII DI. The low B's sounded excellent out front with no major tweaking. So did the rest of the frequency range. Excellent punch too. Many people commented after my set that the sound quality was like an excellent recording, something they felt was a compliment.

That in my opinion is not a bad place to be. YMMV.

Agreed, it's not a bad place to be. If you and everyone else there said your mix sounded great I believe you.

There's just a lot of potential variables: maybe some of the guys boost their onboard preamps, maybe the mix benefited from a bass rolloff (think of how much things clean up when you hit the 80hz hi pass on Mackie mixers.) maybe a dash of upper freq info in the PA mix provided supercharged clarity.

During my A/B test the LMII notes formed much faster in comparison to the DI. When I rolled off the bass band (80hz) of the DI channel those notes got really quick and seemingly clearer too, I found I could match the LMII sound.

The LMII sound was kinda cool from a solo bass perspective but it definintely wasn't passing the lowest fundamendals.

When I did 3 note chords (1,7,10) through the LMII channel there was a dissonant quality whereas the same chord sounded sweet through the DI.

Those are my experiences.

 

[Vic]

Because, it's very difficult to tell if something is missing without having a reference...

...and if that's the case, then the deficiencies are moot, which is what I think we're trying to determine with this discussion.

The discussion (at least IMHO) is not whether there's a difference in the LMII's DI out that can be (or to your point must be) measured with analytical equipment. The discussion is whether the DI in the LMII is "unusable" or not due to alleged extremely poor tone.

I think the point is very simple. If it sounds good, it sounds good, and no comparison to something else is necessary, 'cause that's all that really matters... especially in a live performance situation, and depending on the equipment used, maybe even in the studio.

In other words, I think the discussion is a lot more pragmatic than you seem to think.

 

[marc40a]

...and if that's the case, then the deficiencies are moot, which is what I think we're trying to determine with this discussion.

The discussion (at least IMHO) is not whether there's a difference in the LMII's DI out that can be (or to your point must be) measured with analytical equipment. The discussion is whether the DI in the LMII is "unusable" or not due to alleged extremely poor tone.

I think the point is very simple. If it sounds good, it sounds good, and no comparison to something else is necessary, 'cause that's all that really matters... especially in a live performance situation, and depending on the equipment used, maybe even in the studio.

In other words, I think the discussion is a lot more pragmatic than you seem to think.

I hear your point Vic and it rings true. Let's all grab a Squire Bronco and used Peavey amp and rock out. 99% of the people at the venue won't know the difference. <-That really is true.

We're bass nerds, Vic. This is what we do.

I'm just trying to throw some real information out there for the discerning. If this discussion took place a month ago with other people as the participants, I know that I would've been saved from some grief in a professional situation.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Because, it's very difficult to tell if something is missing without having a reference - especially with regard to the frequency spectrum and audio. Human's aural memory is horrendous and our hearing is naturally biased towards upper freqs.

It's not difficult at all... my hearing is fine... and high frequencies don't make my pants leg flap

An A/B with a known reference provides objective vs. subjective information.

I prefer the former because because I had a soundman/bandleader in a tizzy and a screwdriver to my amp onstage while on a professional gig - knock on wood that I didn't lose one of those screws. I was thinking that either he was crazy or that he didn't even know what a flat bass signal sounded like. I didn't want to believe him.

My rigs sound great in any situation so that wouldn't happen to me... plus the chances of anyone having the balls to even consider doing something to my rig is nil, tizzy or not.

How do I do this? By using gear that can coast through whatever gig I'm on.

I had to take matters into my own hands the next day and test it vs. something that I know passes my full signal. It turns out that he was totally right. I text messaged him that night, "You were right about that DI. Won't happen again."

Dumb question... if that really was an issue, why didn't you just plug directly into a DI? On the rare occassion I've had a soundperson not know how to pad a signal I've done that. Problem solved for that moment... doesn't address the problem of the soundperson not knowing what they're doing, which ultimately isn't my problem anyway.

If I had known beforehand everything would've gone much smoother. I would've acknowledged the lack of fundamentals and bumped the bass up on my onboard pre or not gone to the gig w/ my jumper set pre-EQ or I would've brought a DI.

If you depend on your gear and your sound for work, you should know it inside and out. There are standards in this industry and you should know how your gear performs vs. these standards.

There's no "if" about it, I do Quite often... and my disappointments are few and far between.

My standards are pretty simple... the gear has to operate up to "MY" standards. Seriously, I don't give a rat's patoot about industry standards, they may not be up to mine. I'm very anal about my tone, gear and most of all technique but not to the point where I think I need to second guess it.

When I can go out in the venue (indoors or out) and hear my rig sounding great to me, what else exactly would I need? When I hear my rig sounding great onstage and non-musicians and musicians alike are complimenting me on my sound, including no apparent lack of low end (and yes, I do work my low B), I should second guess that because...?
. Even more basic, when I get called back for gigs because the person who is paying me loved what I did, the problem is...?

If it ain't broke and everyone's happy...


I have no quarrel with people who want to focus on minutia, that's just not my thing. I take that out of the equation by limiting what I used to stuff that works... for me and my needs. That would include my amps, my basses and apparently my DI. Most of all it's me understanding how to get what I want out of what I use. Gear that doesn't fit that model will not be used. As such, my gigging problems are pretty much nonexistent. I know that's unbelievable for some but it's true. I plug in, hook up and play. Just did that over the weekend and Monday night.. again. It's so predictable it's almost boring in it's reliability.

If the LMII didn't perform up to my standards I wouldn't use it. Period. I have other stuff that still works. If a feature didn't work up to those standards, I wouldn't use that feature. I have no stake in pretending the DI works any better than it actually does.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I hear your point Vic and it rings true. Let's all grab a Squire Bronco and used Peavey amp and rock out. 99% of the people at the venue won't know the difference. <-That really is true.

Go right ahead... I'll keep using what I use and get the results I want. Are you one of those "the audience can't tell..." people? I'm not. I don't play to the lowest common denominator, I play to me.

We're bass nerds, Vic. This is what we do.

Forest. Trees. The curse of the bass nerd.

I'm a tone freak. Pleased to meet you.

I'm just trying to throw some real information out there for the discerning. If this discussion took place a month ago with other people as the participants, I know that I would've been saved from some grief in a professional situation.

Does that infer some of us aren't discerning?


You've received "real information" from real world experience and you don't seem to get just how important it ultimately is. Could there be a problem with "your" DI and not all of them?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Agreed, it's not a bad place to be. If you and everyone else there said your mix sounded great I believe you.

There's just a lot of potential variables: maybe some of the guys boost their onboard preamps, maybe the mix benefited from a bass rolloff (think of how much things clean up when you hit the 80hz hi pass on Mackie mixers.) maybe a dash of upper freq info in the PA mix provided supercharged clarity.

I had ridiculous sound onstage. The FOH mimicked that very well. The soundman said he didn't do anything special to my channel.

The lows out ftont and onstage were excellent. With low B's. It almost sounds like you're trying to fiugure out a way to make what happened not happen vs. just looking at reality. My DI worked. Sorry

During my A/B test the LMII notes formed much faster in comparison to the DI. When I rolled off the bass band (80hz) of the DI channel those notes got really quick and seemingly clearer too, I found I could match the LMII sound.

The LMII sound was kinda cool from a solo bass perspective but it definintely wasn't passing the lowest fundamendals.

When I did 3 note chords (1,7,10) through the LMII channel there was a dissonant quality whereas the same chord sounded sweet through the DI.

Those are my experiences.

I did four and five note chords with no dissonance.

 

[Vic]

Let's all grab a Squire Bronco and used Peavey amp and rock out. 99% of the people at the venue won't know the difference. <-That really is true.

That's ridiculous, and I disagree. I've had too many people compliment my tone to think it literally doesn't matter at all. Band members, production folks, and yeah, even audience members.

We're bass nerds, Vic. This is what we do.

Bass nerds, tone freaks, whatever. I'd argue that, as such, we have such discerning taste that we don't need test equipment to know what sounds good and works well... at least I don't.

I'm just trying to throw some real information out there for the discerning.

I'm also throwing some real information out there, from real live gigs and real PA systems.

I'm plenty discerning as anyone who really knows me, and especially heard my tone, will confirm. To infer that I'm not just because I don't need test equipment or a reference DI to determine good tone is ridiculous as well.

If this discussion took place a month ago with other people as the participants, I know that I would've been saved from some grief in a professional situation.

I don't know what you're getting at here, but if you're saying that you don't have decent production crew that you can rely on for a good mix, I think that's a separate problem.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Umm.. yeah, Dude.

Talk to me when you get your head out of your ass and into some headphones.

My assertions over time will become well regarded fact and and you'll just move on to the next flamewar.

Keep dreaming, Sparky. While you're letting people unscrew your gear, I'll be getting paid.


And I don't need phones on a gig... unless there's a click track.

 

[marc40a]

It's not difficult at all... my hearing is fine... and high frequencies don't make my pants leg flap



My rigs sound great in any situation so that wouldn't happen to me... plus the chances of anyone having the balls to even consider doing something to my rig is nil, tizzy or not.

How do I do this? By using gear that can coast through whatever gig I'm on.



Dumb question... if that really was an issue, why didn't you just plug directly into a DI? On the rare occassion I've had a soundperson not know how to pad a signal I've done that. Problem solved for that moment... doesn't address the problem of the soundperson not knowing what they're doing, which ultimately isn't my problem anyway.



There's no "if" about it, I do Quite often... and my disappointments are few and far between.

My standards are pretty simple... the gear has to operate up to "MY" standards. Seriously, I don't give a rat's patoot about industry standards, they may not be up to mine. I'm very anal about my tone, gear and most of all technique but not to the point where I think I need to second guess it.

When I can go out in the venue (indoors or out) and hear my rig sounding great to me, what else exactly would I need? When I hear my rig sounding great onstage and non-musicians and musicians alike are complimenting me on my sound, including no apparent lack of low end (and yes, I do work my low B), I should second guess that because...?
. Even more basic, when I get called back for gigs because the person who is paying me loved what I did, the problem is...?

If it ain't broke and everyone's happy...


I have no quarrel with people who want to focus on minutia, that's just not my thing. I take that out of the equation by limiting what I used to stuff that works... for me and my needs. That would include my amps, my basses and apparently my DI. Most of all it's me understanding how to get what I want out of what I use. Gear that doesn't fit that model will not be used. As such, my gigging problems are pretty much nonexistent. I know that's unbelievable for some but it's true. I plug in, hook up and play. Just did that over the weekend and Monday night.. again. It's so predictable it's almost boring in it's reliability.

If the LMII didn't perform up to my standards I wouldn't use it. Period. I have other stuff that still works. If a feature didn't work up to those standards, I wouldn't use that feature. I have no stake in pretending the DI works any better than it actually does.

Umm.. yeah, Dude.

Talk to me when you get your head out of your ass and into some headphones.

My assertions over time will become well regarded fact and and you'll just move on to the next flamewar.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I don't know what you're getting at here, but if you're saying that you don't have decent production crew that you can rely on for a good mix, I think that's a separate problem.

Agreed. What competent sound person doesn't have a DI?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Today, I asked my Nana if she thought I was handsome and she said, "yes" so that must be true, too.

Take matters into your own hands and do an A/B test in a controlled environment then tell me what you hear.

I'd rather debate about 1st hand experience than anecdotals of my soundman said vs your soundman said. That just muddies the waters.

Considering this tangent started with this misguided BS and you now have the balls to talk about a flamewar...

I love TB... and tell Nana I said what's up.

 

[marc40a]

If you two badasses give yourselves tone boners now, I can't wait 'till you get to hear your first fundamental bass frequency.


Let me know when you do.

 

[Vic]

If you two badasses give yourselves tone boners now, I can't wait 'till you get to hear your first fundamental bass frequency.


Let me know when you do.

Don't get belligerent with me. I have not been so with you.

The hostility is strictly between you and Brad. Don't include me in that. I only challenged your reply to me that we should all play crappy gear 'cause tone doesn't matter. I never said tone doesn't matter. I only said I don't need reference equipment to determine good tone. Period.

 

[Brad Johnson]

If you two badasses give yourselves tone boners now, I can't wait 'till you get to hear your first fundamental bass frequency.


Let me know when you do.

And when you finally get through stumbling over clues and actually get one, let me know. You don't have to be a badass to not be a bonehead about things. But hey, don't take my word for it.



Did that guy tell you you need more fundamental? Is that why he put a screwdriver to your gear?


Everyone knows all you really need is more cowbell. Duh.

Ta' to Nana.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Don't get belligerent with me. I have not been so with you.

The hostility is strictly between you and Brad. Don't include me in that. I only challenged your reply to me that we should all play crappy gear 'cause tone doesn't matter. I never said tone doesn't matter. I only said I don't need reference equipment to determine good tone. Period.

Which is basically what I've been saying all along. He just doesn't like that... and I find that hilarious. I'm not trying to be hostile with him, I'm addressing these what I consider pointless points (based on my experience). Note that not once have I tried to convince him his experience was illigitimate. OTOH...


And so it comes to talk of getting one's head out of ones ass when it's pretty apparently whose head is where IMO.

Again, could he just have a defective DI? Instead of even considering that, this guy wants to prove that what I experienced didn't happen, based on his experience.


That's so brilliant it's scary.

 

[joelb79]

I think you all (brad and marc) are really doing a good job of killing this thread. Give it a rest. By further responding to this madness, what you are doing is taking a worthwhile thread where people respected each other and turning it into a "who's tone is better" boner match.

I'm almost sorry to have to respond and tell you guys to cool it before the mods have to do the unthinkable to a mega-thread, but i'm sick of this yelling match and will refuse to participate in this thread any further until its knocked off.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I think you all are really doing a good job of killing this thread. Give it a rest. By further responding to this madness, what you are doing is taking a worthwhile thread where people respected each other and turning it into a "who's tone is better" boner match.

I'm almost sorry to have to respond and tell you guys to cool it before the mods have to do the unthinkable to a mega-thread, but i'm sick of this yelling match and will refuse to participate in this thread any further until its knocked off.

I'm not yelling and there's been no comparison of tones. Who knows where you got that impression.

Some people are not having issues with the DI on the LMII. I'm one of those people. Is that okay?