The Un-Official Sadowsky SA200 Thread...

[jokerjkny]

OK youz guyz (Joker and Mike)
One of you needs to buy my DB750 ....
I got it new from Jong at Jive Sound....
Great price w/nos tube ....

HEY,

you stop with that talk, NOW.

 

[tombowlus]

That's what I thought. It really wasn't given the chance that it deserves. It is only a matter of time before everyone finds out about them and has to have one. (Looks like that time has come......)

Man, I tried to tell you guys, way back when.

 

[KJung]

So was the amp a giant flop then? Why did he stop making it? The whole thing seemed to have come and gone in an extremely short space of time. Maybe too short a space of time too see if it could turn profit.

Actually, as I predicted at introduction (new product forecasting is my day gig!), the amp was a relative flop. Remember, a lot of the excitement on this thread is generated by the same 5 or 6 guys.

While I post positively about the amp, I would have zero interest in actually using the thing on any gig for the same reason that most of the market has moved to SS amps... heavy, relatively underpowered, expensive, and it sounds like a tube amp! This amp really seems to fall into the crack of having little interest for the true SVT type rockers (given the power and tone profile) and also very little interest in the more pop/funk/country type players who, like me, find it to be the 'tube amp they hate the least', but still would not think about actually lugging the thing around or using it for their tone goals. I[m lucky enough in my situation that the price is really not a barrier for me, but it would be for most, which compounds the problems that this product had in the market.

The idea that there would be a profitable market for an extremely high priced, large, heavy, moderately powered tube amp in the year 2007 makes me shake my head. I'm relatively surprised at the Markbass all tube head introduction also. Howevever, it's much higher power than the SA200 and has some unique design features (auto biasing, etc.) that might push it into the 'classic SVT' market. I doubt it though.

I would say IMO... but the thing was discontinued

Again, don't confuse a small number of very satisfied owners posting a lot, combined with gear hogs like me saying 'yeah, that's pretty cool' with market potential And, on a postive side, don't confuse a market failure with the amp being a 'bad product'... it's just a great product that very few had interest in actually purchasing, given the spec's, weight, tone, price, etc.

If Phil Jones ever puts that 1000 watt tube amp on the market for $10,000 that's listed on his site, many of the same people will ooh and ahhh over that, including me! Doesn't mean anyone would actually buy one.

 

[MikeBass]

Actually, as I predicted at introduction (new product forecasting is my day gig!), the amp was a relative flop. Remember, a lot of the excitement on this thread is generated by the same 5 or 6 guys.

While I post positively about the amp, I would have zero interest in actually using the thing on any gig for the same reason that most of the market has moved to SS amps... heavy, relatively underpowered, expensive, and it sounds like a tube amp! This amp really seems to fall into the crack of having little interest for the true SVT type rockers (given the power and tone profile) and also very little interest in the more pop/funk/country type players who, like me, find it to be the 'tube amp they hate the least', but still would not think about actually lugging the thing around or using it for their tone goals.

The idea that there would be a profitable market for an extremely high priced, large, heavy, moderately powered tube amp in the year 2007 makes me shake my head. I'm relatively surprised at the Markbass all tube head introduction. Howevever, it's much higher power than the SA200 and has some unique design features (auto biasing, etc.) that might push it into the 'classic SVT' range. I doubt it though.

I would say IMO... but the thing was discontinued

Again, don't confuse a small number of very satisfied owners posting a lot, combined with gear hogs like me saying 'yeah, that's pretty cool' with market potential And, on a postive side, don't confuse a market failure with the amp being a 'bad product'... it's just a great product that very few had interest in actually purchasing, given the spec's, weight, tone, price, etc.

If Phil Jones every puts that 1000 watt tube amp on the market for $10,000, many of the same people will ooh and ahhh over that, including me! Doesn't mean anyone would actually buy one.

I agree mostly with what you said Ken, but I actually think there was a LOT of intrest, especially from the country side of things (Michael Rhodes is one that comes to mind quickly- said it was the best amp he ever played through) but, like you stated, big, heavy 200 watts, and in this day and age, guys see that and think-"Not enough power", even though it's stupid loud (it is a tube amp after all!).

But I really don't think that most "gigging" cats just want to deal with a 4 rack space, heavy as hell, REAL expensive amp.
Especially when a DB750 is like a $1000 less and gives a tube amp sound (albeit- maybe not as nice- subjective here I know).

If, and a big IF I could afford one, I for one wouldn't care about the above.
But if (again a big IF) I go down that road, it will be in DB750 land.
For some of the above!!

 

[KJung]

I agree mostly with what you said Ken, but I actually think there was a LOT of intrest, especially from the country side of things (Michael Rhodes is one that comes to mind quickly- said it was the best amp he ever played through) but, like you stated, big, heavy 200 watts, and in this day and age, guys see that and think-"Not enough power", even though it's stupid loud (it is a tube amp after all!).

But I really don't think that most "gigging" cats just want to deal with a 4 rack space, heavy as hell, REAL expensive amp.
Especially when a DB750 is like a $1000 less and gives a tube amp sound (albeit- maybe not as nice- subjective here I know).

If, and a big IF I could afford one, I for one wouldn't care about the above.
But if (again a big IF) I go down that road, it will be in DB750 land.
For some of the above!!

+1 In my business, the most difficult thing for me to do is educate my clients that 'interest' is a very different thing from market potential and sales

You comment on the DB750 is why, I would guess, that Aguilar does not make their big tube amp anymore, and the Triton is now the reason that Mesa is no longer producing the 400.

There will always be room for those SVT reisssues in the market IMO, but not much else in that category.

That being said, as most know when I get into my marketing mode, Roger Sadowsky has it FIGURED OUT on the business/product mix/marketing end of the things for the most part. This was, IMO, a rare glitch in an otherwise very well thought out product line, positioning, etc. Roger's company is the only company that I'm aware of that has combined a lower line (Metro) and upper level line (NYC) successfully so that each product line actually improves the image and sales of the other through careful design, a wonderful distribution plan, beautiful production/quality control, and a perfect sense of pricing and production level for the market.

Edit: Regarding the 'not enough power'.... IMO, just like the DB359, a relatively low powered tube amp will get loud as heck if you like that grind and grunt in your tone. However, for pure, clean tone, 200 watts is 200 watts, as has been said many times by the EE's. Yes, a 200 watt tube amp driven to clip can get loud as heck with what many hear as a 'pleasant, warm tone'. To many of us, it just sounds distorted!

 

[jokerjkny]

Man, I tried to tell you guys, way back when.

*slaps forehead"

i know... i know...

and doods, we've been down this road already.

 

[MikeBass]

You guys know how much those things are going to be worth in say 10 years?!??!

Maybe Roger has a 100 stashed away in a storage locker waiting to sell them a decade from now under a John Doe name!!!


Actually just looked (OT here for a sec...) but are the only amps Aguilar offers the DB750 & AG500?????

 

[KJung]

You guys know how much those things are going to be worth in say 10 years?!??!

Maybe Roger has a 100 stashed away in a storage locker waiting to sell them a decade from now under a John Doe name!!!


Actually just looked (OT here for a sec...) but are the only amps Aguilar offers the DB750 & AG500?????

It wouldn't surprise me. Roger has it going on!

+1 on the Aguilar line... only two amps at this point (although the 500 comes in two versions... single channel and dual with that distortion channel). They just came out with a 'brown' AG500 that looks WAY cool with the tweed and chocolate brown DB cabs My understanding is that they will introduce a replacement to the 680 pre at NAMM.

 

[tombowlus]

The idea that there would be a profitable market for an extremely high priced, large, heavy, moderately powered tube amp in the year 2007 makes me shake my head. I'm relatively surprised at the Markbass all tube head introduction also. Howevever, it's much higher power than the SA200 and has some unique design features (auto biasing, etc.) that might push it into the 'classic SVT' market.

Hmmm... I am not so sure that 70 watts equals 'much higher power', even when you are talking tube watts.

And FWIW, from what I heard of the Classic 300 at NAMM, it is not so much going for the 'Classic SVT tone', but rather, sounds like another take on the 'modern meets tube' kinda tone. Then again, this was based upon a short experience under less than ideal conditions. Nevertheless, it did not strike me that the 'classic SVT crowd' was their main target audience.

Tom.

 

[KJung]

Hmmm... I am not so sure that 70 watts equals 'much higher power', even when you are talking tube watts.

And FWIW, from what I heard of the Classic 300 at NAMM, it is not so much going for the 'Classic SVT tone', but rather, sounds like another take on the 'modern meets tube' kinda tone. Then again, this was based upon a short experience under less than ideal conditions. Nevertheless, it did not strike me that the 'classic SVT crowd' was their main target audience.

Tom.

+1... my main point was this amp will sell at very low levels also, and if your take on it is correct, it will fail even bigger than I thought! It similarly 'does not make sense to me' as the SA200 from a pure business perspective.

 

[tombowlus]

Edit: Regarding the 'not enough power'.... IMO, just like the DB359, a relatively low powered tube amp will get loud as heck if you like that grind and grunt in your tone. However, for pure, clean tone, 200 watts is 200 watts, as has been said many times by the EE's. Yes, a 200 watt tube amp driven to clip can get loud as heck with what many hear as a 'pleasant, warm tone'. To many of us, it just sounds distorted!

As a 'reality check', ratings aside, the SA200 has much more usable volume than the DB 359. I think that anyone who has gigged with both will back me up on this one.

 

[KJung]

As a 'reality check', ratings aside, the SA200 has much more usable volume than the DB 359. I think that anyone who has gigged with both will back me up on this one.

I would guess,from my experience with the DB359, that virtually any amp has more 'usable volume' (i.e., relatively clean volume) than the DB359 I agree with you totally though, the SA200 has more clean ooomph than the ratings would suggest, compared to many other all tube amps.

 

[tombowlus]

+1... my main point was this amp will sell at very low levels also, and if your take on it is correct, it will fail even bigger than I thought! It similarly 'does not make sense to me' as the SA200 from a pure business perspective.

Well, then I guess I gotta say that I am SOOOO glad that manufacturers do not rely solely upon the advice of marketing consultants when deciding what products to offer.

I spoke with Roger a good bit before (and after) the SA200 was introduced, and it was apparent that he had/has a real passion for putting out the best sounding head ('best' being based upon his own subjective standards, of course) possible, with a line of cabs designed to compliment this amp. I think that while Roger may be disappointed with the sales of the SA200, I also think that he has immense personal satisfaction with just how well it turned out.

Marketing, business plans, efficient assembly, mass distribution, etc. have a tremendous impact on what products make it to the market, and also what markets gain a foothold in the market, and exhibit staying power. But passion, vision, inspiration, taste, style, and a love for musical expression are the driving factors behind the products that really make you take notice of how well they serve the music and the art that make it all worthwhile.

Tom.

 

[KJung]

Well, then I guess I gotta say that I am SOOOO glad that manufacturers do not rely solely upon the advice of marketing consultants when deciding what products to offer.

I spoke with Roger a good bit before (and after) the SA200 was introduced, and it was apparent that he had/has a real passion for putting out the best sounding head ('best' being based upon his own subjective standards, of course) possible, with a line of cabs designed to compliment this amp. I think that while Roger may be disappointed with the sales of the SA200, I also think that he has immense personal satisfaction with just how well it turned out.

Marketing, business plans, efficient assembly, mass distribution, etc. have a tremendous impact on what products make it to the market, and also what markets gain a foothold in the market, and exhibit staying power. But passion, vision, inspiration, taste, style, and a love for musical expression are the driving factors behind the products that really make you take notice of how well they serve the music and the art that make it all worthwhile.

Tom.

As long as you don't need to make money and stay in business based on these types of products, I agree totally.

I myself find a product like the Thunderfunk or Markbass LMII or the DB750, etc., etc. at least as impressive as this particular 'failed' product though. I reject your idea that a product designer who makes a product that a lot of people actually want has any less love, passion, or skill than those that make products that most don't want... they are just better at it

 

[tombowlus]

As long as you don't need to make money and stay in business based on these types of products, I agree totally.

I myself find a product like the Thunderfunk or Markbass LMII or the DB750, etc., etc. at least as impressive as this particular 'failed' product though. I reject your idea that a product designer who makes a product that a lot of people actually want has any less love, passion, or skill than those that make products that most don't want... they are just better at it

That was not my idea, and I am not sure where you got that from.

I am, however, separating the 'marketing, manufacturing efficiency, supply and demand analysis, etc.' from the 'artist's vision, musical goals, etc.' Sometimes, you get both in one package, and this is certainly a highly desirable occurrence. But, for me at least, I would prefer (and seem to own) a tremendous sounding product that was discontinued due to 'market factors' to a piece of gear that sounds like crud, but has great market presence because Musician's Friend floods the market with adds and sells it at 'blowout' prices.

IME/IMHO, of course, and YMMV.

Tom.

 

[tombowlus]

I myself find a product like the Thunderfunk or Markbass LMII or the DB750, etc., etc. at least as impressive as this particular 'failed' product though.

While I definitely appreciate what all three of those particular amps offer, I gotta disagree (again), and say - IME/IMHO, of course - not even close.

 

[KJung]

While I definitely appreciate what all three of those particular amps offer, I gotta disagree (again), and say - IME/IMHO, of course - not even close.

Ha! Ok... again, not saying that your love for this amp is not valid at all, just that the general market doesn't feel the same way. I sure don't

Again, not railing on the SA200 at all, and surely not trying to negate the love that the few people who bought them have for them. Every failed product has a small, loyal following

Fun topic for me, since it is my business, and I enjoy evaluating new products in the music industry. Like any other category, there are winners and losers, and I find it interesting to parse through the reasons!

 

[KJung]

That was not my idea, and I am not sure where you got that from.

I am, however, separating the 'marketing, manufacturing efficiency, supply and demand analysis, etc.' from the 'artist's vision, musical goals, etc.' Sometimes, you get both in one package, and this is certainly a highly desirable occurrence.

That was my only point!

 

[tombowlus]

Ha! Ok... again, not saying that your love for this amp is not valid at all, just that the general market doesn't feel the same way. I sure don't

What a shock! Our opinions differ!!!

Fun topic for me, since it is my business, and I enjoy evaluating new products in the music industry. Like any other category, there are winners and losers, and I find it interesting to parse through the reasons!

Conversely, I find it interesting and enjoyable to parse through all those 'failed' products which exhibit the love, passion, and vision of the artists behind them.

 

[Willem]

It seems there still is a SA200 and SA410 in stock in Poland: Invalid Link Removed