Grindcore was originally a combination of crust, powervoilence and hardcore punk, I dont really think it belongs in that group. It was only the second subgenre to be labeled as "core", and has been around far longer than deathcore or metalcore.
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Threads concerning heavy metal: music's true nerds?
- Thread starter Marlat
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Grindcore was originally a combination of crust, powervoilence and hardcore punk, I dont really think it belongs in that group. It was only the second subgenre to be labeled as "core", and has been around far longer than deathcore or metalcore.
People who look down on other artists because they believe their genre is superior infuriate me.
I'm a metalhead to some degree, I enjoy the complexity and energy the music has, it is very flexible and is just as difficult or easy/beautiful or annoying as you make it. It is the most extreme upon the senses in my humble opinion.
That seems to be the reason metal gets a bad rep, too many people become elitist over it and isolate themselves into only listening to that genre. I think its a perfectly fine genre. The fans often ruin it for us though :/
And there is indeed a difference in sound if you dig deep enough beyond the fools who seem to simply mimic each other.
Between the buried and Me and Opeth for instance, they combine many different genres with metal, and simply use the aggresiveness and extremity on the senses to make their sound.
THATS what I think metal is, not just snare and kick drum slamming. Its an atmosphere you create with metal in a sense. And never just listen to metal, listen to everyone eh?
I'm a metalhead to some degree, I enjoy the complexity and energy the music has, it is very flexible and is just as difficult or easy/beautiful or annoying as you make it. It is the most extreme upon the senses in my humble opinion.
That seems to be the reason metal gets a bad rep, too many people become elitist over it and isolate themselves into only listening to that genre. I think its a perfectly fine genre. The fans often ruin it for us though :/
And there is indeed a difference in sound if you dig deep enough beyond the fools who seem to simply mimic each other.
Between the buried and Me and Opeth for instance, they combine many different genres with metal, and simply use the aggresiveness and extremity on the senses to make their sound.
THATS what I think metal is, not just snare and kick drum slamming. Its an atmosphere you create with metal in a sense. And never just listen to metal, listen to everyone eh?
I would be VERY impressed to see one individual, using the common English language*, not colloquialism or slang, define each of these elements as separate a entity:
metalcore
deathcore
grindcore
death metal
black metal
prog metal
neumetal
- in descriptive individual terms, that have specific, definitive elements to that genre'.
* By that I mean that instead of saying "sick shredding", use commonly understood terms such as "very fast transitions or extremely fast fingering or cords". If something cannot be defined by anything but slang, that definition by default is not exacting.
metalcore
deathcore
grindcore
death metal
black metal
prog metal
neumetal
- in descriptive individual terms, that have specific, definitive elements to that genre'.
* By that I mean that instead of saying "sick shredding", use commonly understood terms such as "very fast transitions or extremely fast fingering or cords". If something cannot be defined by anything but slang, that definition by default is not exacting.
Most of those can be found on wiki. Just sayin. Actually probably all of them.
Many of them have very clear and distinct sounds.
The most obvious ones are
Black: Go look up Dunkelheit by Burzum.
Death: Look up Dead by Dawn by Deicide.
Death metal is about looking cool doing wankery guitar solos moshing and ****. Black metal is anti all of that and combines ambient and atmospheric elements into the songs, typically things that a death metal elitist back in the 90s would have called "uncool" or "pussy". Death praises technical skill on your instrument. Black not so much and actually it is common to have horrible production to add to the atmosphere of the songs.
The reason there's a million different subgenres today is because bands tend to mix and mash what their favorite things are.* Back in the 80s and 90s people were still playing the most basic elements of the genres. So like, death metal up until Domination by Morbid Angel came out was more focused on speed, sort of like thrash metal. But once Domination came out and tempos slowed down death metal suddenly had a new sound. Morbid Angel was popular enough that the exposure from releasing an album in a very slow style (listen to Where The Slime Live, studio version not live, it's fast live) so it caught on.
*Or they will pick their most favorite thing and make entire songs based off it. Which generally sounds like trash. It happens often with solos or breakdowns. Nile will have songs that are basically just soloing for 10 minutes. A Suffocation clone band or -core will have a song based completely on the breakdown.
A progressive metal band typically doesn't limit themselves within the specific genres. It's much the same as progressive rock except with much heavier tones and more morbid lyric themes.
All said and done I honestly don't really care too much about subgenres. I look for death, thrash or black and don't really care to narrow it down anymore. Then listen to the music itself to see if I like that specific band/album.
I did as you suggested and looked them up in Wiki and they have circular definitions that were inexact at best:
"Metalcore is a subgenre of heavy metal combining various elements of extreme metal and hardcore punk" (Wiki)
"Deathcore is an extreme metal music genre that combines elements of death metal with elements of metalcore or hardcore punk, or both" (Wiki)
"Metalcore is a subgenre of heavy metal combining various elements of extreme metal and hardcore punk" (Wiki)
"Deathcore is an extreme metal music genre that combines elements of death metal with elements of metalcore or hardcore punk, or both" (Wiki)
How is that circular? Deathcore, from what I know, is a later development of metalcore with more death metal influences.
Of course, I'm not that into that whole branch of the metal family tree, lol.
Of course, I'm not that into that whole branch of the metal family tree, lol.
A circular definition is one that uses the term(s) being defined as a part of the definition or assumes a prior understanding of the term being defined.
Within any grenre of music or any type of hobby, elitism will be there in some form.
Perhaps part of the genre wars is simply due to the availability of music. I'm old enough to remember NOT having access to anything outside of what the radio played, local stores stocked, and what was shown on my neighbor's MTV since my parents wouldn't spring for cable.
Metal used to be far from mainstream and you couldn't be too picky with which metal or you wouldn't have any metal friends at all.
It's because of what I said.
They are a mix of the band members favorite influences and how they choose to implement them. Most bands don't even try to fit into a specific subgenre, they just play what they like. It's usually internet nerd fans that focus on "omg it's death core, no no you noob it's tech-death". The majority of interviews for big bands when asked what style they play in they just answer "oh it's just metal, thats all."
Honestly there's no real point in trying to understand it. You'll realize what is generally categorized as what as you become more familiar with the music overall. If you like one specific metal band go to the encyclopedia metallum and look at related bands. It's usually very accurate at getting other bands that sound similar. Or even blatantly copied the other band if they're big.
I only use two Metal sub-genre titles in my world:
Good Metal
Bad Metal
Unfortunately, IMO, most newer stuff that comes out is in the second category. To be fair, a lot of "old" stuff fits there, too.
I think having so many sub-genre titles hurts the music and it's credibility to the mainstream listener. Of course, traditionally, Metal really has nothing to do with "mainstream" or what anyone else thought about it.
It's all a matter of opinion of the listener.
Something similar has probably already been posted on this, but I wanted to give my $0.02 without reading 13 pages on this matter.
Good Metal
Bad Metal
Unfortunately, IMO, most newer stuff that comes out is in the second category. To be fair, a lot of "old" stuff fits there, too.
I think having so many sub-genre titles hurts the music and it's credibility to the mainstream listener. Of course, traditionally, Metal really has nothing to do with "mainstream" or what anyone else thought about it.
It's all a matter of opinion of the listener.
Something similar has probably already been posted on this, but I wanted to give my $0.02 without reading 13 pages on this matter.
It doesn't matter that much. I simply said that it would be impressive if they could be defined. If they can't be defined, so be it. Perhaps they are simple marketing elements; there's noting wrong with that.
However, as music, I have not seen the definition of these sub-forms of Metal be defined & it appears that the challenge of defining them is something that is not easily met (& therefore impressive if it could be).
Blues, Jazz (& their sub-forms) can be defined musically.
BLUES:
Blues is the name given to both a musical form and a music genre that originated in African-American communities of primarily the "Deep South" of the United States at the end of the 19th century from spirituals, work songs, field hollers, shouts and chants, and rhymed simple narrative ballads. The blues form, is characterized by specific chord progressions, of which the twelve-bar blues chord progression is the most common. The blue notes that, for expressive purposes are sung or played flattened or gradually bent (minor 3rd to major 3rd) in relation to the pitch of the major scale, are also an important part of the sound.The blues form is a cyclic musical form which repeating progression of chords mirrors the call and response scheme ubiquitous in African and African-American music.
The basic 12-bar lyric framework of a blues composition is reflected by a standard harmonic progression of 12 bars in a 4/4 time signature. The blues chords associated to a twelve-bar blues are typically a set of three different chords played over a 12-bar scheme.
The term "the blues" refers to the "blue devils", meaning melancholy and sadness; an early use of the term in this sense is found in George Colman's one-act farce Blue Devils (1798). Though the use of the phrase in African-American music may be older, it has been attested to since 1912, when Hart Wand's "Dallas Blues" became the first copyrighted blues composition. In lyrics the phrase is often used to describe a depressed mood. Much of the time, some or all of these chords are played in the harmonic seventh (7th) form. The use of the harmonic seventh interval is characteristic of blues and is popularly called the "blues seven". Blues seven chords add to the harmonic chord a note with a frequency in a 7:4 ratio to the fundamental note. At a 7:4 ratio, it is not close to any interval on the conventional Western diatonic scale. For convenience or by necessity it is often approximated by a minor seventh interval or a dominant seventh chord. A minor pentatonic scale can be exemplified.
In melody, blues is distinguished by the use of the flattened third, fifth and seventh of the associated major scale. These specialized notes are called the blue or bent notes. These scale tones may replace the natural scale tones, or they may be added to the scale, as in the case of the minor blues scale, in which the flattened third replaces the natural third, the flattened seventh replaces the natural seventh and the flattened fifth is added between the natural fourth and natural fifth. While the 12-bar harmonic progression had been intermittently used for centuries, the revolutionary aspect of blues was the frequent use of the flattened third, flattened seventh, and even flattened fifth in the melody, together with crushing—playing directly adjacent notes at the same time (i.e., diminished second)—and sliding, similar to using grace notes. The blue notes allow for key moments of expression during the cadences, melodies, and embellishments of the blues.
Rock & Roll (which also has been defined) may hold "Metal" as an existing sub-form. Yet these sub-forms [of Metal] have not [been clearly defined] & it appears they are, at their heart, colloquial. If someone COULD define them, it would be damn impressive because as it seems they are marketing elements that defy clear musical encapsulation.
Again, if someone could clearly define them (as above) it would be damn impressive. I'm simply talking about music & it's elements.
However, as music, I have not seen the definition of these sub-forms of Metal be defined & it appears that the challenge of defining them is something that is not easily met (& therefore impressive if it could be).
Blues, Jazz (& their sub-forms) can be defined musically.
BLUES:
Blues is the name given to both a musical form and a music genre that originated in African-American communities of primarily the "Deep South" of the United States at the end of the 19th century from spirituals, work songs, field hollers, shouts and chants, and rhymed simple narrative ballads. The blues form, is characterized by specific chord progressions, of which the twelve-bar blues chord progression is the most common. The blue notes that, for expressive purposes are sung or played flattened or gradually bent (minor 3rd to major 3rd) in relation to the pitch of the major scale, are also an important part of the sound.The blues form is a cyclic musical form which repeating progression of chords mirrors the call and response scheme ubiquitous in African and African-American music.
The basic 12-bar lyric framework of a blues composition is reflected by a standard harmonic progression of 12 bars in a 4/4 time signature. The blues chords associated to a twelve-bar blues are typically a set of three different chords played over a 12-bar scheme.
The term "the blues" refers to the "blue devils", meaning melancholy and sadness; an early use of the term in this sense is found in George Colman's one-act farce Blue Devils (1798). Though the use of the phrase in African-American music may be older, it has been attested to since 1912, when Hart Wand's "Dallas Blues" became the first copyrighted blues composition. In lyrics the phrase is often used to describe a depressed mood. Much of the time, some or all of these chords are played in the harmonic seventh (7th) form. The use of the harmonic seventh interval is characteristic of blues and is popularly called the "blues seven". Blues seven chords add to the harmonic chord a note with a frequency in a 7:4 ratio to the fundamental note. At a 7:4 ratio, it is not close to any interval on the conventional Western diatonic scale. For convenience or by necessity it is often approximated by a minor seventh interval or a dominant seventh chord. A minor pentatonic scale can be exemplified.
In melody, blues is distinguished by the use of the flattened third, fifth and seventh of the associated major scale. These specialized notes are called the blue or bent notes. These scale tones may replace the natural scale tones, or they may be added to the scale, as in the case of the minor blues scale, in which the flattened third replaces the natural third, the flattened seventh replaces the natural seventh and the flattened fifth is added between the natural fourth and natural fifth. While the 12-bar harmonic progression had been intermittently used for centuries, the revolutionary aspect of blues was the frequent use of the flattened third, flattened seventh, and even flattened fifth in the melody, together with crushing—playing directly adjacent notes at the same time (i.e., diminished second)—and sliding, similar to using grace notes. The blue notes allow for key moments of expression during the cadences, melodies, and embellishments of the blues.
Rock & Roll (which also has been defined) may hold "Metal" as an existing sub-form. Yet these sub-forms [of Metal] have not [been clearly defined] & it appears they are, at their heart, colloquial. If someone COULD define them, it would be damn impressive because as it seems they are marketing elements that defy clear musical encapsulation.
Again, if someone could clearly define them (as above) it would be damn impressive. I'm simply talking about music & it's elements.
I suppose it would be impressive if someone could define them all. I would be willing to bet that most people who consider themselves "x-core", or "y-core" would not agree with the definitions on whole.
The only definition I could find that was not circular or composed of too many slang expressions so that it was not exacting was eventually through Wiki. {As someone who actually saw and remembered Blue Cheer I found this very interesting.}
Wiki attempts to define "Heavy Metal" Music:
Heavy metal (often referred to simply as metal) is a genre of rock music that developed in the late 1960s and early 1970s, largely in the Midlands of the United Kingdom and the United States. With roots in blues rock and psychedelic rock, the bands that created heavy metal developed a thick, massive sound, characterized by highly amplified distortion, extended guitar solos, emphatic beats, and overall loudness. Heavy metal lyrics and performance styles are generally associated with masculinity and machismo.
The first heavy metal bands such as Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple attracted large audiences, though they were often critically reviled, a status common throughout the history of the genre. In the mid-1970s Judas Priest helped spur the genre's evolution by discarding much of its blues influence; Motörhead introduced a punk rock sensibility and an increasing emphasis on speed. Bands in the New Wave of British Heavy Metal such as Iron Maiden followed in a similar vein. Before the end of the decade, heavy metal had attracted a worldwide following of fans known as "metalheads" or "headbangers".
Characteristics
Heavy metal is traditionally characterized by loud distorted guitars, emphatic rhythms, dense bass-and-drum sound, and vigorous vocals. Metal subgenres variously emphasize, alter, or omit one or more of these attributes. New York Times critic Jon Pareles writes, "In the taxonomy of popular music, heavy metal is a major subspecies of hard-rockthe breed with less syncopation, less blues, more showmanship and more brute force." The typical band lineup includes a drummer, a bassist, a rhythm guitarist, a lead guitarist, and a singer, who may or may not be an instrumentalist. Keyboard instruments are sometimes used to enhance the fullness of the sound.
The electric guitar and the sonic power that it projects through amplification has historically been the key element in heavy metal. The lead role of the guitar in heavy metal often collides with the traditional "frontman" or bandleader role of the vocalist, creating a musical tension as the two "contend for dominance" in a spirit of "affectionate rivalry". Heavy metal "demands the subordination of the voice" to the overall sound of the band. Reflecting metal's roots in the 1960s counterculture, an "explicit display of emotion" is required from the vocals as a sign of authenticity. Critic Simon Frith claims that the metal singer's "tone of voice" is more important than the lyrics.
The prominent role of the bass is also key to the metal sound, and the interplay of bass and guitar is a central element. The bass guitar provides the low-end sound crucial to making the music "heavy". Metal basslines vary widely in complexity, from holding down a low pedal point as a foundation to doubling complex riffs and licks along with the lead and/or rhythm guitars. Some bands feature the bass as a lead instrument, an approach popularized by Metallica's Cliff Burton in the early 1980s.
The essence of metal drumming is creating a loud, constant beat for the band using the "trifecta of speed, power, and precision". Metal drumming "requires an exceptional amount of endurance", and drummers have to develop "considerable speed, coordination, and dexterity...to play the intricate patterns" used in metal. A characteristic metal drumming technique is the cymbal choke, which consists of striking a cymbal and then immediately silencing it by grabbing it with the other hand (or, in some cases, the same striking hand), producing a burst of sound. The metal drum setup is generally much larger than those employed in other forms of rock music.
In live performance, loudnessan "onslaught of sound," in sociologist Deena Weinstein's descriptionis considered vital. In his book Metalheads, psychologist Jeffrey Arnett refers to heavy metal concerts as "the sensory equivalent of war." Following the lead set by Jimi Hendrix, Cream and The Who, early heavy metal acts such as Blue Cheer set new benchmarks for volume. As Blue Cheer's Dick Peterson put it, "All we knew was we wanted more power. "A 1977 review of a Motörhead concert noted how "excessive volume in particular figured into the bands impact. "Weinstein makes the case that in the same way that melody is the main element of pop and rhythm is the main focus of house music, powerful sound, timbre, and volume are the key elements of metal. She argues that the loudness is designed to "sweep the listener into the sound" and to provide a "shot of youthful vitality."
Wiki attempts to define "Heavy Metal" Music:
Heavy metal (often referred to simply as metal) is a genre of rock music that developed in the late 1960s and early 1970s, largely in the Midlands of the United Kingdom and the United States. With roots in blues rock and psychedelic rock, the bands that created heavy metal developed a thick, massive sound, characterized by highly amplified distortion, extended guitar solos, emphatic beats, and overall loudness. Heavy metal lyrics and performance styles are generally associated with masculinity and machismo.
The first heavy metal bands such as Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple attracted large audiences, though they were often critically reviled, a status common throughout the history of the genre. In the mid-1970s Judas Priest helped spur the genre's evolution by discarding much of its blues influence; Motörhead introduced a punk rock sensibility and an increasing emphasis on speed. Bands in the New Wave of British Heavy Metal such as Iron Maiden followed in a similar vein. Before the end of the decade, heavy metal had attracted a worldwide following of fans known as "metalheads" or "headbangers".
Characteristics
Heavy metal is traditionally characterized by loud distorted guitars, emphatic rhythms, dense bass-and-drum sound, and vigorous vocals. Metal subgenres variously emphasize, alter, or omit one or more of these attributes. New York Times critic Jon Pareles writes, "In the taxonomy of popular music, heavy metal is a major subspecies of hard-rockthe breed with less syncopation, less blues, more showmanship and more brute force." The typical band lineup includes a drummer, a bassist, a rhythm guitarist, a lead guitarist, and a singer, who may or may not be an instrumentalist. Keyboard instruments are sometimes used to enhance the fullness of the sound.
The electric guitar and the sonic power that it projects through amplification has historically been the key element in heavy metal. The lead role of the guitar in heavy metal often collides with the traditional "frontman" or bandleader role of the vocalist, creating a musical tension as the two "contend for dominance" in a spirit of "affectionate rivalry". Heavy metal "demands the subordination of the voice" to the overall sound of the band. Reflecting metal's roots in the 1960s counterculture, an "explicit display of emotion" is required from the vocals as a sign of authenticity. Critic Simon Frith claims that the metal singer's "tone of voice" is more important than the lyrics.
The prominent role of the bass is also key to the metal sound, and the interplay of bass and guitar is a central element. The bass guitar provides the low-end sound crucial to making the music "heavy". Metal basslines vary widely in complexity, from holding down a low pedal point as a foundation to doubling complex riffs and licks along with the lead and/or rhythm guitars. Some bands feature the bass as a lead instrument, an approach popularized by Metallica's Cliff Burton in the early 1980s.
The essence of metal drumming is creating a loud, constant beat for the band using the "trifecta of speed, power, and precision". Metal drumming "requires an exceptional amount of endurance", and drummers have to develop "considerable speed, coordination, and dexterity...to play the intricate patterns" used in metal. A characteristic metal drumming technique is the cymbal choke, which consists of striking a cymbal and then immediately silencing it by grabbing it with the other hand (or, in some cases, the same striking hand), producing a burst of sound. The metal drum setup is generally much larger than those employed in other forms of rock music.
In live performance, loudnessan "onslaught of sound," in sociologist Deena Weinstein's descriptionis considered vital. In his book Metalheads, psychologist Jeffrey Arnett refers to heavy metal concerts as "the sensory equivalent of war." Following the lead set by Jimi Hendrix, Cream and The Who, early heavy metal acts such as Blue Cheer set new benchmarks for volume. As Blue Cheer's Dick Peterson put it, "All we knew was we wanted more power. "A 1977 review of a Motörhead concert noted how "excessive volume in particular figured into the bands impact. "Weinstein makes the case that in the same way that melody is the main element of pop and rhythm is the main focus of house music, powerful sound, timbre, and volume are the key elements of metal. She argues that the loudness is designed to "sweep the listener into the sound" and to provide a "shot of youthful vitality."
Wait so you will copy the entire page of heavy metal but one line of deathcore?
I wish I had something more than a phone, because I would define them all for you right now, but I'm not writing a book on here, Soo.....
And yea. I just read all of this. I'm cool
I wish I had something more than a phone, because I would define them all for you right now, but I'm not writing a book on here, Soo.....
And yea. I just read all of this. I'm cool
Keeping in mind that they all hold similarities to each other due to all of them being "Metal"
Here is how I, In my humble opinion, define these:
metalcore- A subgenre primerally consisting of a relatively heavy atmosphere, an agressive mix of clean and screamed vocals with more of a rock or soulful singing style. While still portraying an obvious melody. Many of the songs are often about love. Very popular, many mainstream metal bands do this Ex. All that Remains, Killswitch engage.
deathcore- A more dark subgenre, often seldom using clean vocals but with an obvious intended instrumental melody. Vocals are more of a heavy chant. Focusing on more agressive fighting related themes and portraying an angry atmosphere. Lots of energy.
grindcore- Sungenre primerally consisting of a very technical and quick atmosphere. Guitarists and especially the drummer are playing at very quick tempos, with very fast drum kick speeds almost making a drone-like atmosphere. Vocals are primerally screamed in the higher register. Stops, starts, and instant tempo changes are exemplified in this genre. Malodorus for example.
death metal- Possibly the most aggressive of the given subgenres, portaying a theme of blood, murder, and death. Often a consistant barrage of heavy guitars and a very thick atmosphere of the music. Vocals are generally very gutteral and demonic The song has a very simple undebeat. Good headbanging music. Cannibal corpse for example.
black metal- Consisting of a very drawn out atmosphere and instrumental work, with a constant drive throughout the song. Themes of war, glory, adventures, fantasy, battles ect. Often high pitched vocals, keyboards and orchestral sounds implemented. Often in strange attire and makeup for the stage show.
prog metal- Metal mixing many genres and styles, song often transits from from section to another, rather than completely stopping. Music tends to be complex and extreme on the senses, many time signature changes are often used, usually with drawn out solos of some form. This genre is hard to define given that near "anything goes" as far as themes, styles, vocals, and melodies are implemented. Often other metal genres will be used, with ambiance, funk, rock, country, or other music genres head within the epoch. Ex. Between the Buried and Me, Opeth, Dream theater.
neumetal- Metal consisting of a generally rough and fight-like attitude. But supplementing itself with hip-hop, pop, or other mainstream influences to creat it's sound. Vocals are often sung or chanted rather than screaming, but screams are implemented. Metal creating more of a pop or hip-hop style of rhythm. Disturbed and Korn being being the first two that come to mind.
There you go, I may be off a bit, but that is how I tend to think of it. When it gets down to the nitty gritty of subgenres its often a little subjective. Regardless, that is MY opinion and definition of the subgenres. To each his own.
EggplantofDoom said:
Nicely worded, except it should he said that grindcore is much more hardcore/crust punk than metal - encyclopedia metallum doesn't even allow a lot of grindcore bands to be added.
So the differentiation of death metal and deathcore are [vocal style] in a chant-like element? (NOTE: I'm not taking issue with it, I AM actually curious; no one put that much distinction in Wiki!)
In the majority of descriptors you had noted issues that concerned vocals. Are there specific musical elements that are distinct?
john grey said:
Vocal delivery is a very big difference in genres. The difference between death metal and deathcore is that deathcore utilizes hardcore elements, breakdowns and is more accepted by the xcore scene, whereas death metal has little to no breakdowns. Deathcore is death metal with hardcore elements. See job for a cowboy - entombment of a machine versus elysia - incinerate
