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To those who only run their amps 'flat': why?

#141
Mark Reccord said:
I've seen the "flat settings whether it makes sense or not" attitude a lot on the faders side of the mixing desk. It seems to be a badge of honour among a certain group of techs to have everything looking as flat as possible, especially back in the days of hardware based EQs and outboard gear. "I hardly had to pull anything out of the graphic at all!" Well maybe you should have because 100Hz is killing everyone on the floor and there's enough 5kHz at FOH to make your eyeballs explode. :D Seriously, the EQ is there to help even out the response in the room, use it when it needs to be used.
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Yep, and turning knobs to the right of center is not automatic grounds for shunning and ignoring in my word either. Link Removed
 
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#143
Mark Reccord said:
I had the "never boost" thing driven into me by a lot of the guys I learned the craft from but I figured out that there were lots of times when a bit of a boost in a certain range is helpful.
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Cut first is a fine mode and I too have had that deeply ingrained for many years. But as always, the Duke Standard is money.
 
#144
Zooberwerx said:
OCD. I like all the knobs pointing in the same direction with a commonly-acknowledged orientation: 12:00.

When grocery shopping, I always select the 3rd package back, never the first in the row as it has undoubtedly been handled & stared at thus compromising the integrity of the components within. This is true...ask Mrs. (Susan) Zooberwerx.

Riis
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When I try something out at GC that they have to take out of a box, I try it out then tell them to get me an unopened one because this one's been opened. I want a factory-fresh one.
 
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#145
Zooberwerx said:
OCD. I like all the knobs pointing in the same direction with a commonly-acknowledged orientation: 12:00.

When grocery shopping, I always select the 3rd package back, never the first in the row as it has undoubtedly been handled & stared at thus compromising the integrity of the components within. This is true...ask Mrs. (Susan) Zooberwerx.

Riis
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While not looking, could you have somebody else turn the knobs until it hits the sound you're after, Then pull them off and push them back on facing noon?
 
#146
>start fooling around
Apparently there are two (approximately) points of view:
1. Flat camp= EQ Camp --> think they can hear a mouse squeak two miles away during a hurricane.
2. EQ camp= Flat Camp --> may as well be playing bass hitting two stones together during a hurricane.
Good thing our politicians aren’t this way!:laugh:
>stop fooling around
 
#147
seamonkey said:
While not looking, could you have somebody else turn the knobs until it hits the sound you're after, Then pull them off and push them back on facing noon?
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Ya know, this has possibilities! Here are some other bass-related quirks:

*The long arm of a hex key, when inserted in the hex screws of bridge saddles, always faces "due south" or perpendicular to the saddle itself.

*The PH screw heads on the pickup mounting screws always align like this "+", not this "x".

Riis
 
#148
Running your amp flat just means zero boost or cut, so its like bypass. What goes in gets amplified and goes out. This is where the amp gets its character or colour or voice. i.e. How the signal gets changed, due to the actual electronic components. It doesn't mean you get a flat eq curve as such. From there just go to town on where you want your low mids and highs set at.

Someone mentioned phase anomolies due to eq'ing. That is correct in a studio setting using the desk eq. Whether separation (isolation booths) or a virtual live recording, the signals, mostly, have their own tracks and can be manipulated for desired results.

In a live situation, guitars, keyboards bass etc are all perhaps close mic'd or di'ed yet their sound is projected, via the PA, and intermingled with on stage amplification, causing all manner of phase problems, whether your amp is "flat" or not. The band have to know how to eq as a unit. The engineer tries to do what he can with what he's got. Results are usually mixed.

Imo, use your tone controls as you see fit. If you like "flat" use it. If you like thick, thicken it. For me, I try to let the song dictate what is required.
 
#149
seamonkey said:
While not looking, could you have somebody else turn the knobs until it hits the sound you're after, Then pull them off and push them back on facing noon?
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ha ha...good one!

I always start at zero. then try to cut if needed then only if that doesn't work then I boost. And if I get confused - ears do that you know - I start over at zero. Most of the time I don't need to move my amp settings from "flat".
 
#153
A number of years ago I talked to Ron Wickersham at Alembic about this. I was mucking about with a stereo Sf2 Superfilter and F2b rig and wanted to incorporate his ELF technology. We talked about signal chain and eq, and his opinion then was that in almost all situations reductive eq was the way to go. Boost mids by cutting bass/treble etc., and making up for it with clean gain. It's weird to look at an amp eq set up this way, but it made a lot of sense then and it's still working for me today.

Interestingly enough, he also said the ELF technology was great for anyone in about a hundred foot radius, but otherwise pretty useless when it comes out of the mains. I bought Bag End speakers and skipped the Elf. Oh yeah, the Bag Ends have their own special eq juice as well. At least they don't have knobs and sliders...
 
#155
Road Hat said:
A number of years ago I talked to Ron Wickersham at Alembic about this. I was mucking about with a stereo Sf2 Superfilter and F2b rig and wanted to incorporate his ELF technology. We talked about signal chain and eq, and his opinion then was that in almost all situations reductive eq was the way to go. Boost mids by cutting bass/treble etc., and making up for it with clean gain. It's weird to look at an amp eq set up this way, but it made a lot of sense then and it's still working for me today.
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I don't know that I get the logic of that thinking anymore. I do think it's generally a good idea not to go crazy with boosts if hi-fidelity is what you're looking for. But EQ's also allow you to boost cleanly for a reason. If, for example, I was doing FOH and thought the bass could use a little shot of 125 hz to make it have that warm bottom, am I going to slightly boost the 125 hz control, or am I going to bring everything else down then reset the level for the bass channel? Three guesses what I'm doing.
 
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#156
I run my rigs flat because it simplifies things for me. That starts with basses that sound great through relatively neutral gear without needing to tweak right off the bat. That will then go through an amp and cab setup that I actually like the sound of when the amp's EQ controls are set at 12 o'clock/centered.

This won't work with a head that has a strong voicing when set flat or a cab that I don't like through a neutral amp. This makes my setup time very short on my gigs and makes getting my sound very easy because I typically start off right in the middle of the ballpark. Of course some rooms are hopeless and I deal with that as needed but for most rooms if I need to do any tweaks they're usually minimal and don't either via onboard EQ or my hands.

Before I took this strategy I had gear I had to fight with through maybe a set or two if not all night just to get somewhere near what I wanted. Like my early Trace Elliot rig or my first year SWR SM400 head. Both sounded fine with my Fender Jazz and iffy with everything else I used. That frustration on a gig got old. Now my physical setup takes maybe five minutes and usually sounds amazing. That's what works for me... and I regularly gig over a dozen basses. Repeatability in sound quality is a big deal with me.
 
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#157
IME compressors may give the over all sound a distinct "smooth" feel that may reduce the need for EQ.
I would not call it a "flat" sound if a compressor is involved to process the sound.

I think that very dynamic signals tend to demand for EQ'ing rather then compressed signals.
 
#158
JimmyM said:
I don't know that I get the logic of that thinking anymore. I do think it's generally a good idea not to go crazy with boosts if hi-fidelity is what you're looking for. But EQ's also allow you to boost cleanly for a reason. If, for example, I was doing FOH and thought the bass could use a little shot of 125 hz to make it have that warm bottom, am I going to slightly boost the 125 hz control, or am I going to bring everything else down then reset the level for the bass channel? Three guesses what I'm doing.
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You make a great point. I was definitely shooting for a hi-fi tone, and indeed it was often difficult to quickly tune the rig to a room using reductive methods. At that time, I was an inveterate tone tweaker, so I didn't mind as much. However, for the past ten years or so I've been running a Bag End WT-405 head and Bag End 15" speakers. I generally bypass the Voicing (EQ) section and run flat, but it has a neat feature called Dynamic Boost (Bass and/or Treble). From a hi-fi standpoint, it's like the Loudness control found on many old-school stereos. It provides a full, round tone at low volume, and the louder you play, the less the effect impacts the tone. Pretty cool. If I was playing out today, like you I'd now twist an EQ knob for quick adjustments, but in the studio I still use the old method whenever possible.
 
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#159
Road Hat said:
You make a great point. I was definitely shooting for a hi-fi tone, and indeed it was often difficult to quickly tune the rig to a room using reductive methods. At that time, I was an inveterate tone tweaker, so I didn't mind as much. However, for the past ten years or so I've been running a Bag End WT-405 head and Bag End 15" speakers. I generally bypass the Voicing (EQ) section and run flat, but it has a neat feature called Dynamic Boost (Bass and/or Treble). From a hi-fi standpoint, it's like the Loudness control found on many old-school stereos. It provides a full, round tone at low volume, and the louder you play, the less the effect impacts the tone. Pretty cool. If I was playing out today, like you I'd now twist an EQ knob for quick adjustments, but in the studio I still use the old method whenever possible.
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Funny you mention that loudness button...I was just saying a month ago how most folks don't like to hear music out of flat response gear. I see a lot of loudness buttons engaged in stereo systems, especially small ones. My own car stereo is set to have a bit of a scoop I got by juicing the treble and bass. But you can certainly overdo it when you boost, too. Much easier to go wrong with boosting than cutting. Boosting not only turns up the volume of that frequency, but it also turns up its corresponding noise floor. Not to mention the introduction of distortion. So boosting isn't something you can just do willy nilly like cutting. It can work very well, but as always, with great power comes great responsibility. And in the studio, I've been known to request a boost from time to time, but overall, I'd definitely agree that it's worth the time to sort your sound with reductive EQ, just so you don't run into problems down the road caused by overboosting or recording too hot.
 

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