Tube shootout with the Demeter VTBP-201

[grace & groove]

Jay,

Nice review. Thanks, I'm in the market for atube preamp so this was timed nicely......

 

[j-raj]

Great shootout Jay!

I'm going to spend more time reading this, when I'm out of work...

I have a pair of JJ/Tesla 12AX7's in my Trace V-Type Pre and it sounds gritty, Round and Warm... just what need. THe funny thing is that I just pulled them off our shelf here at work and ta-da...

 

[Jeff A]

P.S. I think I'm done spending the time to post this stuff up here on TB. If you're not one of the "favored" few, noone (except for an isolated few) seems to read or post up on extensive review work done by someone who doesn't have 5000+ posts or enough gear to keep 25 people interested for two days. I appreciate your question, Paul (and your response, Devilman) - I'm just mystified that only two people responded...especially given the sheer number of tube preamps owned by members on this board. The one review I did that generated a decent response was the review on the budget Steelsound cab last year - go figure, it took all of about 30 minutes to get the data to write that one up. This took quite a while just to gather the tube specimens, let alone do the test, take notes, then write it up. I'll just wait until some quintuple A+ flame maple topped bass drops into my lap (I'm not a flamed maple fan BTW) - then I'll throw up some gratuitous pictures and 600 people will post about it for days. Just venting.

WOW, when I read this, I could really understand where you were coming from and what you were feeling. It takes a great amount of effort to do this type of comparison and post the results. Maybe I'm part of the blame. I usually only respond to some of the silly posts (and usually with a subdued sarcastic response). When I read threads of this nature (meaning informative), I just take the info in, file it away for present or future use and go to the next thread. ...but it's these threads that keep me coming back to TBF.

Thanks...

 

[vicenzajay]

Awesome shootout, Jay!

I am sorry that it took me so long to find it!

BTW, I recently had Brian build me up a custom LowEnd True Voice preamp that has dual sockets for 12AX7-based tubes, and a switch.

Always great to hear from you! Would love details on the True Voice...would definitely be something I would be interested in trying. Given your tube selection, let us know what you like best. I was very interested in how well the JJ 803 S sounded in the V2 position. I'm even more interested in how it does over a 4-hour time period. I'll report back on that as well.

Completely off topic - thought you'd be interested to know that I wound up sending my Quest II overseas to Gareth (from the Dudepit) in the U.K. After using it on three shows, I just couldn't justify having it given that I couldn't even out the D.I. send between the two channels (especially now that I'm fortunate enough to have the iAMP 800 to fill the solid state billet). It turned out to be a terrific deal for him given the prices in England, and I wound up not spending a ton of money for the chance to try it out. Bottom line was that the Demeter (fed by the MDB-1) won the day. Gotta love the Raven Labs unit for evening out all the instruments.

In any case - thanks to Gruuv for selling me his Quest and the chance to try it out...that unit is definitely making it's way around the world.

Jay

 

[vicenzajay]

Forgive my vent in the earlier post....I appreciate the fact that so many of you seem to understand my feelings. To be honest, at my age I should be mature enough to realize that many read and don't post....I guess the fact that I've been fighting some type of infection together with the sheer energy/time expended combined to put me in an "off" mood.

I apologize - I tell you, though, doing something like this really makes one appreciate it when someone else does a major "shootout" or comparison study. It's not a walk-in-the-park by any definition.

Thanks again - great replies lately (forcing me to get back to reading and learning some more). Much of what we're discussing has direct correlations to PA setup/use, home recording equipment, etc. Just when I think I'm beginning to get the hang of something, I find out just how much I don't know.

Jay

 

[tombowlus]

Always great to hear from you!

And vice versa! Again, I am sorry that it took me so long to find this excellent, well-thought out and extensive shootout. My thanks to you and your wife!

Would love details on the True Voice...would definitely be something I would be interested in trying.

Once I started acquiring a bunch of different preamp tubes, I realized that I really wanted something that I could l could load tubes in and out of easily (of course the TV came to mind) and that it would really be ideal to have a 2-channel version with a switch between the two. After talking with Brian Barrett about this, he said that he could build me a custom model. Thanks again, Brian! I'll try to get a photo up tonight.

Given your tube selection, let us know what you like best.

Will do!

I was very interested in how well the JJ 803 S sounded in the V2 position. I'm even more interested in how it does over a 4-hour time period. I'll report back on that as well.

I look forward to hearing from you on this.

Completely off topic - thought you'd be interested to know that I wound up sending my Quest II overseas to Gareth (from the Dudepit) in the U.K. After using it on three shows, I just couldn't justify having it given that I couldn't even out the D.I. send between the two channels (especially now that I'm fortunate enough to have the iAMP 800 to fill the solid state billet). It turned out to be a terrific deal for him given the prices in England, and I wound up not spending a ton of money for the chance to try it out. Bottom line was that the Demeter (fed by the MDB-1) won the day. Gotta love the Raven Labs unit for evening out all the instruments.

I am sorry that the Quest II didn't work out for you. I haven't monkeyed with trying to balance the two channels and the DI, myself. Regarding the MDB-1, that is a real life saver when you play with multiple instruments!

Tom.

 

[Stubb]

Cool review! I'll refer back to this when I am in the market for new tubes for my Bassman 100. I have JAN GE 5751s right now, but perhaps changing one of them out will give me even better results.

 

[vicenzajay]

Cool review! I'll refer back to this when I am in the market for new tubes for my Bassman 100. I have JAN GE 5751s right now, but perhaps changing one of them out will give me even better results.

That 5751 tubes are fantastic alternatives to AX7's when you'd like "just" a tad less clean gain. The JAN GE's are really nice, so you might just go right back to using them after doing any rolling.

I've found that a nice, clean JAN 5751 (RCA/Philips/GE) can be the BOMB with an optical tube compressor. For some reason, most of the currently manufactured tube compressors ship with Sovtek or EH 12AX7's as the tube of choice - IMO, the three tubes I like in a compressor are 5751's, 12AT7's, or a nice 12AU7. I'm usually not trying to get a huge amount of "gain" per se from a compressor (only makeup gain after compression), and I definitely don't need any additional distortion from the tube. Clean tone, even-ordered harmonics, and fairly noiseless circuit does the trick for me (as far as compression goes).

Jay

 

[vicenzajay]

Great shootout Jay!

I'm going to spend more time reading this, when I'm out of work...

I have a pair of JJ/Tesla 12AX7's in my Trace V-Type Pre and it sounds gritty, Round and Warm... just what need. THe funny thing is that I just pulled them off our shelf here at work and ta-da...

I'm a big fan of the JJ offerings...thus my surprise when my ECC 83S didn't fair as nicely as I was expecting. It's still a good tube, and I plan on plunking it into one of my vocal channel preamps. I might also see how it does in the V2 position at another time...the RF response might not be so noticeable, and it definitely has the potential to "drive" the signal through the output stage.

Jay

 

[paulraphael]

Jay, do you have any general observations on the influence of tubes in the 1 position vs. the 2 position? And do you have any idea what different roles the two tubes play in the circuit? I read a British review once that speculated on this, but never knew for sure.

I'm also curious to know how you feel the Dem competes with the higher end solid state amps (like your EA or recently departed Epi) when its loaded with leaner, more hi fi sounding tubes.

Thanks again,
P

 

[vicenzajay]

Jay, do you have any general observations on the influence of tubes in the 1 position vs. the 2 position? And do you have any idea what different roles the two tubes play in the circuit? I read a British review once that speculated on this, but never knew for sure.

I'm also curious to know how you feel the Dem competes with the higher end solid state amps (like your EA or recently departed Epi) when its loaded with leaner, more hi fi sounding tubes.

Thanks again,
P

For me, the V1 position seems to affect the tone's musicality more than the V2...whereas the V2 seems to amplify/balance the V1 tube's response. I could be all wrong in this, but I believe the V1 tube imparts most of the tonal signature to the signal. Obviously they both work in tandem somewhat, and in the Demeter, the V2 tube heats up much faster than the V1. Probably worth a call to Demeter for some education here (on my part).

How did they stack up against the SS amps? The Quest had a very open, airy tone when set flat. It was actually very like the Demeter when it is EQ'd for a nice Hi-Fi'ish sound. Yes, there is a miniscule difference in the "quickness" of the preamp's response - The Quest was quicker (as expected of the SS preamp). However, the Demeter, with the tubes I used above, was very quick with the flat EQ, and the only difference was that undeniable "liquidity" that an all-tube circuit seems to impart to the signal path. I will say (subjectively) that the Demeter's tone is "purer", and by that I mean the overall note (and it's harmonics) just seem more musical. How's that for an unscientific observation. JokerJNY has posted a listing somewhere here (I believe in the Quest thread) of how he sees the tube preamps lining up (from tubey and thick to quick with "sheen"). If I remember right, the Demeter was somewhere in the middle toward the clean and quick side. I simply don't have the gear experience to try and compare it with other bass tube preamps right now (other than the ART Tube channel - which is "tubier/chewier" and less quick).

As far as the EA iAMP is concerned, it actually has several settings (either with contours or EQ) that give it's tone a noticeable fatness while remaining extremely quick. My impressions of the EA (although I only had it here for a week before sending it to EA for upgrades/checkover) were that it could do the Quest airy/quick/clean thing really well in addition to adding some nice "fatness" when desired. Thus I decided to let the Quest go to someone who could benefit from it. My wife actually did the A/B thing with the iAMP and the Quest for about an hour one night. Her absolute favorite between the two was the Quest's passive channel completely flat followed closely by the EA's completely flat channel. Her third favorite was the EA contour for fingerstyle as it added fatness that really complemented some of the stuff I was playing.

Of note, I brought the iAMP to my jazz group's practice before sending it to Gary at EA - about halfway through the practice our guitarist (who is a phenomenal jazz/gypsy guitarist) stopped and asked me if there was a tube stage in the "new" amp I had brought. Go figure.

Jay

 

[RAM]

Thanks for reading it....I really try hard to take the time to read other's head-to-head type reviews. It makes buying decisions (perhaps) just a bit easier - even if that decision is quite a ways into the future.

As an example - 18 months or so ago I read Tom's review of EA's Wizzy as compared to other "portable" cab solutions. I wasn't in the market (or able to be in the market) for cabinets at that price point at the time, but I filed it away in my head for future reference. When the opportunity to get a used pair in super shape - it was a "no-brainer" (and I immediately PM'd Tom for advice given the fact that it was his review I had read).

I know I don't have quite the resources to stage extensive gear comparisons; however, when I do "wring" out a piece of gear, I try to do it thoroughly...and then post about it so that other's can at least read it. When someone acknowledges the effort - it's VERY appreciated.

Thanks,
Jay

Believe me...your excellent, detailed review is HIGHLY appreciated, even if people don't necessarily respond.

I have a Read Purity (though it's tied up in my soon-to-be-ex-wife's home) that I'd love to experiment one day, just as you did...your post will definitely help provide me some insight as to how to go about doing so, and which tubes I might try.

Thanks for your top-notch review!

 

[tombowlus]

I'm a big fan of the JJ offerings...thus my surprise when my ECC 83S didn't fair as nicely as I was expecting.

It may be a case of the JJ ECC83S not mating up well with the Demeter, too.

Tom.

 

[murphy]

Hello and Thank you for a very interesting read and useful review.
Always good to look up when tube choice time arrives
Sorry I didn't respond sooner...and I do understand where you are coming from

Cheers and keep em coming!!

 

[vicenzajay]

It may be a case of the JJ ECC83S not mating up well with the Demeter, too.

Tom.

Although I'd actually like to try another couple of the same tube (of hopefully different batch runs). The low end of my particular tube was just huge...if I could find one with a slightly tamer low end to mate with the nicely controlled top end...well, then, the Mullard would have a run for it's money.

Jay

 

[vicenzajay]

Hello and Thank you for a very interesting read and useful review.
Always good to look up when tube choice time arrives
Sorry I didn't respond sooner...and I do understand where you are coming from

Cheers and keep em coming!!

Really appreciate the vote of confidence.

Only word of warning I have is that with tubes - YMMV bigtime with different preamps and different tube batches. I'm hoping some of the generalities stay the same, however. As I get a few more tubes, I'll work on updating this review over time.

Jay

 

[JansenW]

Great review. Thanks for your work. Thanks to your wife who helped and may have had to put up with it.

I'll remember the thread when its time to buy my tubes.

 

[Iridescentone]

Well the old 201 certainly is a perfect pre for comparing different tubes.

With my 201, I came up with pretty much the same result. I have two old Brit Mullards in there right now.

I found Telefunkens to be a tad smoother sounding with my setup, and they are my faves.

Got great tone from Holland Bugle Boys and old Tungsols also.

GE 12AX7's sound sweet too, for less money.

 

[vicenzajay]

Well the old 201 certainly is a perfect pre for comparing different tubes.

With my 201, I came up with pretty much the same result. I have two old Brit Mullards in there right now.

I found Telefunkens to be a tad smoother sounding with my setup, and they are my faves.

Got great tone from Holland Bugle Boys and old Tungsols also.

GE 12AX7's sound sweet too, for less money.

I need to try some Telefunkens (if I can find them somewhat affordably). Great to know that my "results" aren't completely off the mark.

And JansenW - Yes, I'm very fortunate to have a really cool (and musical) wife!

Thanks,
Jay

 

[tombowlus]

Well the old 201 certainly is a perfect pre for comparing different tubes.

With my 201, I came up with pretty much the same result. I have two old Brit Mullards in there right now.

I found Telefunkens to be a tad smoother sounding with my setup, and they are my faves.

Got great tone from Holland Bugle Boys and old Tungsols also.

GE 12AX7's sound sweet too, for less money.

+1 on your observations of the above-referenced tubes. Spot on.