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Turbosound IP2000 Review
- Thread starter musicman7722
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The drivers all face forward on the 1st generation Bose L1s.
I believe the splay in the newer Bose does two things, 1. Increases the horizontal dispersion at higher frequencies, and 2. Narrows the vertical center to center spacing of the drivers to push the frequency of audible comb filter higher.
For about two months in 2008 I mixed a pop/rock group with bass, drum set, 2 guitars, sax, bone, trumpet, and 2 vocals on a pair of 1st generation L1s with four B2 bass modules.
For larger events, I ran the L1s in front of the band and bypassed the Bose proprietary EQ. I mixed the band on a Yamaha DM1000. The bass player used an SWR Basic Black. This modest little amp, could easily overpower the Bose system. IMHO, the entire band had to play with what I considered heroic restraint for a pop/rock band...but the band made me proud.
My observations about the 1st generation L1s.
Horizontal dispersion was pretty beamy at high frequencies and I had to put the columns pretty close together to create a good solid acoustic image across the front of the band, other wise the acoustic image would collapse in the middle. I noticed mid range frequencies had a tendency to wrap around the speakers and feedback so I had to do a lot of extra carving with my parametric EQ, especially around 400-700hz. The EQ curve I used remained relatively consistent from gig to gig. Notches for various feedback frequencies changed by venue.
I noticed the vertical dispersion of the high frequencies was also quite narrow, so it was important to make sure the speakers were at the right height and tilted forward a bit. Ground stacking did not provide sufficient height, so I frequently placed the columns on tables. Unfortunately if the sound was optimized for standing, the highs would shoot over my head if I sat down, even though my head was higher than the bottom array element. I wedged a Countryman Type 85 under the back of edge column base and it helped a lot, but the connectors holding the speaker elements together appeared to be obviously strained.
The comb filtering from the vertical spacing of the drivers made cymbals and other high frequency instruments sound a bit unnatural/artificial. IMHO the sound was pleasant but not what I would consider high fidelity.
During outdoor gigs, I noticed the low end didn't throw as well as the mids and highs. In an effort to correct this, I centered the four subs between the L1 columns, spaced about two feet apart with the center subs about two feet behind the outside subs. This seemed to help focus the bass in front of the band a little better.
We did plug a couple of mics directly into the L1s for smaller indoor events a couple times. We engaged the Bose presets for our Audix OM5s and placed the L1 behind the mic and it sounded surprisingly good, despite the low ceiling.
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Interesting. Coincidentally I heard a DJ using 2 bose sticks with 4 bass modules at a wedding last weekend. It was in a room I've played before (including the gig in this thread, with 1 k10 and 1 zxa1 Got Momma a gig for her birthday). He had one stick/2 subs in each corner. It was sounded ok when dancing up close but his mic was muddy when he spoke and everything was muddy in the back of the room, which is understandable concerning the size and acoustics. 2 k12s and either a 181 or 2 zxa1 subs could would have sounded every bit as good for half the cash. The DJ's setup/EQ skills could have been a factor.
The built in presets seem really well tuned to the mics they are intended for...at least the Audix OM5 sounded crisp and clear. Plugging a mic into the unit without the preset sounded horrible...and it took me a couple of days fiddling with parametric to dial in a good response for the mixer.
With two subs in the corner, perhaps the subs just overpowered the stick. I believe Bose currently sells various lengths of columns. If the DJ used the short versions and they were ground stacked, the HF pattern was probably hitting everyone in the chest or lower. IMHO the originals, need to be elevated at least two feet to work well. Longer/taller arrays should make elevating unnecessary, but then the sound is traveling mostly horizontal to the ground so you get a lot of shadowing if there are taller people between you and the speakers. Even with speakers on stands, I like to get them fairly high and aim them down a bit so the sound has an unobscured path to the audience's ears and there is less sound bounced of the ceiling. I believe the K series has a built in tilt feature for this...I use K&M tilt adapters.
Any of the column pa's project better than the Bose. More even volume and consistent coverage throughout the room. I wish that I could buy 2 more of my carvin trc210 rigs. Very gig worthy. The column arrays that slip together rather than use cords really worry me.
1 or 2 subs and 2 tops would be easier than 4 subs and 2 multicomponent sticks. YMMV.
I don't know which version he had but they were taller than me (6ft). They weren't far back in the corner and they were 20-30 feet from each other. Not the way I would have set them. I like to put all the subs in one spot. I suspect it could have sounded better with some twiddling.
The same guy ran the sound for the wedding outside. Our band played for the service but not the reception. We were on a patio facing out to the open field. We used the ip2000 as a monitor and he ran the FOH. It sounded good. I still used a rumble combo to fill out our "stage". He was using some larger powered speakers on sticks, no subs, and the canned music sound was outstanding. I have no idea what we sounded like but everyone said it was good.
The best column arrays I have heard are made by SLS, but they ain't cheap. I believe one of the university auditoriums in or near Prescott AZ has four installed along with parallel columns of 12" subs. The sound is incredibly HIFI but coverage is not perfect for the center front row as the apron juts out a bit and audience is right on the lip. We ran our own time delayed Meyer Sound UPM-1Ps at a low level to fill in the hole a bit. I played string bass on the gig, but our tech said the sound was exceptional in most of the house...volume and tone was very even throughout with exception of the dead spot center front.
If I won the lottery, I would consider four of these. There is an adapter that allows them to be coupled vertically. Probably a stupid and impractical idea, but I like it.
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I played an outdoor thing with some Renkus-Heinz giant sticks that sounded pretty sweet. It's been a few years but I think he said they were ~$15k each.
Hey,
So we maybe want to invest in IP serie aswell. We already own a IP15b subwoofer. Do you think one or two of the IP2000 or even IP1000 with the IP15b sub is enough to get good music in the room when our band is playing?
Maybe someone has any expierence using these in a church like this.
Thanks for the help!
Herm-Jan
So we maybe want to invest in IP serie aswell. We already own a IP15b subwoofer. Do you think one or two of the IP2000 or even IP1000 with the IP15b sub is enough to get good music in the room when our band is playing?
Maybe someone has any expierence using these in a church like this.
Thanks for the help!
Herm-Jan
In rooms like that, the challenge is to increase the ratio of direct/reverberant sound that listeners hear, especially as you increase distance from the mains to listening position X. Otherwise, away from the front of the room, intelligibility becomes terrible. This is a common challenge in church sound, often addressed by installing a number of auxillary satellite speakers to provide more direct sound to the more remote zones. Those satellites need to be time-aligned (and often tone aligned) per zone, so you can't just spitball the installation.
That Fonestar speaker is has a very different sound-design goal than the msuicians' arrays that this thread discusses. The IPs (and Bose, etc) are designed for more even dispersion, so they're less "beamy" and directional. Those Fonestar digital speakers are designed to cover a linear swath of the room, with limited dispersion outside of their aimed "beam." The idea is to have an aimed speaker with deep throw but very narrow dispersion, to cut down on the proportion of reverberant sound heard in the room's more distant sections. (In the beam of a speaker like that, intelligibility is improved. But for church installations, you still need enough beams to cover the room.)
Any reliable advice requires listening to the room, but I wouldn't expect it to be a great solution for that kind of space. As always, though, I could be wrong.
Hey,
So we maybe want to invest in IP serie aswell. We already own a IP15b subwoofer. Do you think one or two of the IP2000 or even IP1000 with the IP15b sub is enough to get good music in the room when our band is playing?
Maybe someone has any expierence using these in a church like this.
Thanks for the help!
Herm-Jan
Beautiful room.
I see a speaker on a stand. Is there more than one? How does it sound now?
Start w/ how sound will fit in the space. Are you buying an all-purpose system for the church to install? Do you need the system to cover the nave and aisles? Transept? Essentially, the more area you need to cover, the likelier you are to use time-aligned satellite speakers for some zone coverage. That gives you better a direct/reverberant ratio, and it also allows the system to run without hitting the first few rows with blistering volume.
Or are you a band that plays this space, for audiences that are grouped toward the front of the room (that is, not spread throughout the room away from your FOH cabs)? In that case, at low to (very) moderate performance volumes, something like the IP2000s could work for you.
Or are you a band that plays this space, for audiences that are grouped toward the front of the room (that is, not spread throughout the room away from your FOH cabs)? In that case, at low to (very) moderate performance volumes, something like the IP2000s could work for you.
Hey,
So we maybe want to invest in IP serie aswell. We already own a IP15b subwoofer. Do you think one or two of the IP2000 or even IP1000 with the IP15b sub is enough to get good music in the room when our band is playing?
Maybe someone has any expierence using these in a church like this.
Thanks for the help!
Herm-Jan
I believe column arrays can be very helpful in an environment like that, but the depth of the hall requires delay fills to reach the back of the room with any intelligibility.
So we used 2 of those in the past. But the we removed them because they were not pleasing for the eye. (i did not want them removed). Also they did not sound that great. really loud when you were close and almost not hearable if you were in the back. At the moment we use a 100 volt system for speech and also for the band at this point. It's pretty bad echo in the whole room. And for the band the sound is just bad. No midrange. These speakers are designed for speech. That's why we want something new. Now i read some good things about column arrays having a good direct sound for a lot of the room that was why i was interested.
We want the whole room to hear us. We are playing in service's on sundays. First i thought about just buying sattalites for our IP15B sub and put them on top of the wood platform left on the picture. Blasting down on the people. But i think the spread of that is not good enough for the whole church.
Now ofc we want something that isn't harsh on the eye aswell. So putting sattalites on every pillar is a no go. (altough that would be the best for the sound i think).
Sorry what do you mean by Delay fills?
