Turbosound IP2000 Review

[Wasnex]

Sorry what do you mean by Delay fills?

Speakers that are placed out in the hall with signal delay so the sound aligns with the sound coming from the main speakers. For localization, the audience should hear the mains slightly before the delays. The level of the delays should be higher than the mains. For ballpark delay, determine propagation time A, B, C, D. The delay required for the first speaker is the difference of A-B. The delay required for the second speaker is the difference of C-D. After setting your initial delay, adjust by ear while walking the delay zone.

Delay fills increase intelligibility and even out volume from front to back in the hall.

 

[Herm-Jan]

Hmm yeah alright. Is that needed for a 10-15 meter hall? We've got something like that with the 100 volt system we use atm. Can we fix that aswell by adding a IP300 as a delay speaker or something like that?

 

[Wasnex]

Hmm yeah alright. Is that needed for a 10-15 meter hall? We've got something like that with the 100 volt system we use atm. Can we fix that aswell by adding a IP300 as a delay speaker or something like that?

Perhaps I am viewing the photo from the wrong perspective.

If the room should be viewed as really wide but only 15 meters deep then IP2000 are probably not the answer.

IMHO, having distributed speakers without delay can actually make matters worse in spaces with lots of natural echo and reverb.

Here's is a diagram of the room I did in Paint. Rather than me making assumption, how would it be setup with your band. Band location and audience direction. You can copy the image to MS Paint and then edit. I have mixed sound is this sort of environment may times...it's very challenging.

 

[Herm-Jan]

Perhaps I am viewing the photo from the wrong perspective.

If the room should be viewed as really wide but only 15 meters deep then IP2000 are probably not the answer.

IMHO, having distributed speakers without delay can actually make matters worse in spaces with lots of natural echo and reverb.

Here's is a diagram of the room I did in Paint. Rather than me making assumption, how would it be setup with your band. Band location and audience direction. You can copy the image to MS Paint and then edit. I have mixed sound is this sort of environment may times...it's very challenging.

View attachment 3050409

It's like this

 

[nutdog]

That may not be too bad for an inexpensive solution. We’ve flirted with the idea of ip2000 or 3000s up front with 500’s on delay for the rear expansion rooms in our church. Wouldn’t cost much to try. Even low budget digital mixers have aux sends with delay. Can you get a couple to try that could be returned if it’s no good?

 

[nutdog]

One thing that would make it more viable is if the colum would separate from the sub. Subs on the floor, columns hung high, but can’t with these. There are other systems that do this, albeit probably significantly more expensive.

 

[Wasnex]

View attachment 3050450

It's like this

I would move the speakers you have drawn forward a bit and aim them more directly down the wings. Basically you want to try and aim the speakers to minimize the amount of sound you are putting on the walls. So there should be a dead zone between the wings and the audience chamber in front of the band. Another way you can keep the sound off the walls is to get the speakers relatively high and them angle them down so the top of the dispersion pattern ends a few feet above the audiences head at the rear of the hall. When the audience chamber is flat, this also helps the high frequencies get to the audiences ears.

Another speaker system is required to cover the audience chamber in front of the band.

If the audience can sit in the benchs really close to the side of the band in a dead zone. I would add some small speakers at low volume running off an aux or matrix. Similar to the way front fills are used on a wide stage.

I would delay all of the speakers back to the band and try to get them to integrate so the sound is seamless.

If the goal is to do this with two speakers, then your diagram is probably about as good as it's going to get.

 

[Herm-Jan]

Oke, Thanks for the feedback and tips! Do you think this is the best solution though? Or are normal speakers better in this case? Also considering the price of the IP2000's we will need.

 

[musicman7722]

Do you mean a 100 watt PA system? You write 100volts.

 

[Herm-Jan]

Do you mean a 100 watt PA system? You write 100volts.

Hey, no i mean a 100 volt system. :'(

 

[Wasnex]

Oke, Thanks for the feedback and tips! Do you think this is the best solution though? Or are normal speakers better in this case? Also considering the price of the IP2000's we will need.

I don't have direct experience with the IP2000s. The closest product I have used is Bose L1s and that is not a product I would recommend for this venue.

The idea with column line arrays is wide horizontal and narrow vertical dispersion. If you go with two speakers the IP2000s may be the better choice if their horizontal dispersion is truly as good as people claim. But consider that with a pair of IP2000s the center of the horizontal dispersion pattern will be aimed pretty close to the part of the room where there is no audience.

If you go with four speakers, I believe more traditional speakers would serve you better as they will allow you to use height and aiming to target the audience with more precision. The idea is to keep as much sound off the walls and ceiling as possible.

When I was a touring tech. I would have probably used six 12+ horn speakers on tripods for that sort of setup. I would have spent a bit of time walking around looking at the seats trying to make a good compromise between sound and site lines. I used a digital board so time aligning the speakers was simply a matter measuring to get close then dialing in by ear. If different volume levels were required for different zones, I routed the signals through additional auxes or matrixes.

We also carried some very compact front fill speakers with a pair of 5" woofers and a tweeter. If any audience members were expected to sit really close to the band I would run those along the lip of the stage. So depending on circumstances I might use those in place of a pair of the 12+ horns or in addition to them.

I know this seems complicated...the room your dealing with is a real mess from an audio standpoint.

 

[kringle77]

If you have used the column arrays, you will have experienced their superior performance. The bose arent true column arrays. I own a small carvin rig and eish that I could buy more. Even vertivally stacking my cheap pair of alto trouper columns gets alot of the same properties. Wide horizontal dispersion, volume varies less close up or at a distance, less ceiling and floor reflections. The only drawback with most of these systems is that, of you buy 2, you will be forced to split the subs. I can seperate the subs and tops with the carvin. If not for this, I would purchase a pair of the ip3000 rigs.

 

[Wasnex]

If you have used the column arrays, you will have experienced their superior performance. The bose arent true column arrays. I own a small carvin rig and eish that I could buy more. Even vertivally stacking my cheap pair of alto trouper columns gets alot of the same properties. Wide horizontal dispersion, volume varies less close up or at a distance, less ceiling and floor reflections. The only drawback with most of these systems is that, of you buy 2, you will be forced to split the subs. I can seperate the subs and tops with the carvin. If not for this, I would purchase a pair of the ip3000 rigs.

The Bose are true column arrays, but I would not be at all surprised if the IP2000 are superior in many ways.

IMHO, the IP2000 would be a good choice for a different venue than the one we are discussing. Wide dispersion is not always an advantage. I would expect a lot of natural reverb in the Church so carefully controlling sound dispersion can produce increased intelligibility.

A consideration we have not discussed is whether the speakers will be used exclusively in the Church. If yes, I would not buy the IP2000. If no, maybe the IP 2000 is the right choice. The OP should learn and weigh the pros and cons to the best of his ability.

 

[kringle77]

Hm, the bose that I have seen and used have the small drivers splayed in different directions. A true column has the speakers all facing forward. It greatly effects the sound and especially forward throw. Ill never go back to regular woofer/horn pa cabs. Im spoiled.

 

[Wasnex]

Hm, the bose that I have seen and used have the small drivers splayed in different directions. A true column has the speakers all facing forward. It greatly effects the sound and especially forward throw. Ill never go back to regular woofer/horn pa cabs. Im spoiled.

I am aware of the splay with the Bose L1 series II drivers. The intent is to increase horizontal coverage and also decrease the center to center spacing between the drivers to push on axis comb filtering to a higher frequency. The original L1 had all drivers facing forward which resulted in some pretty nasty crunch and narrow dispersion at high frequencies.

I don't agree with your narrow definition of column array, but see no point in arguing about it. If if you want to get into specifics: The IP2000 uses slightly larger drivers (2.75") than the Bose (2.25") and overcomes the comb filtering by using a horn loaded super tweeter. This means the IP2000 does not behave as a line source at high frequencies. Then again neither does the Bose. I would bet both behave as a line source at a much higher frequency than the Alto Trouper which uses 6.5 inch woofers and crosses over to an HF horn at a relatively low 1.8Khz.

Here's a comparison review that rated the IP2000 as #1. Invalid Link Removed

 

[kringle77]

Absolutely no argument here. I just vastly prefer any column array to traditional tops. Churches are so tough, sound wise. I actually think any subs in those environments cause more problems that solutions.

 

[Herm-Jan]

The Bose are true column arrays, but I would not be at all surprised if the IP2000 are superior in many ways.

IMHO, the IP2000 would be a good choice for a different venue than the one we are discussing. Wide dispersion is not always an advantage. I would expect a lot of natural reverb in the Church so carefully controlling sound dispersion can produce increased intelligibility.

A consideration we have not discussed is whether the speakers will be used exclusively in the Church. If yes, I would not buy the IP2000. If no, maybe the IP 2000 is the right choice. The OP should learn and weigh the pros and cons to the best of his ability.

Yes the system will only be used in this church.
I think we will just have to try this out. And see hoe it works?.

 

[nutdog]

Just noticed there is an ip300 model. Looks interesting.

 

[Wasnex]

Yes the system will only be used in this church.
I think we will just have to try this out. And see hoe it works?.

I do suggest reading the comparison review from 2017 Invalid Link Removed
Note this line from the review:

Other Options: The iP2000 is the top dog, but if you’re willing to swap out the 12-inch sub for a dual-eight inch you can go for the $1599 iP1000, which has the same 1000W column loudspeaker. The $1299 iP500 has a 600W column loudspeaker and single eight-inch sub.​

Good luck !

 

[Herm-Jan]

I do suggest reading the comparison review from 2017 Invalid Link Removed
Note this line from the review:

Other Options: The iP2000 is the top dog, but if you’re willing to swap out the 12-inch sub for a dual-eight inch you can go for the $1599 iP1000, which has the same 1000W column loudspeaker. The $1299 iP500 has a 600W column loudspeaker and single eight-inch sub.​

Good luck !

Hmm good roundup! Turbosound and HK audio have the furthest in throw range. So i think one of those two are the best for our church.