Vintage 15" JBL comparisons w/soundclips

[Downunderwonder]

Ok, thought it best to just hook one up and see what they can do last time I hooked these up as bass cabs was 15 years ago. I guess I learned a bit about EQ in that time.

The one I tested rattles a bit in funny places but it makes nice noises under the rattles. I think the beat up cabs have earned a trip to the scapheap and a new oldschool 2x15 cab is in order for the D180.

All the same, I can hear why guys would have been blowing them out left and right back in the day when they were the best that was going.

I highpassed it at a few frequencies with an XTI and it seemed to provide a happy medium for tone at 60Hz, ie just getting going at 80Hz. No 5 string allowed eh!

More questions:
What does this mean for the tuning frequency of my new box? I guess I have to keep it at 40Hz as any higher would not like open E at all. I won't have a highpass with the D180, just a EQ pedal to help out.

Do I go with JBL or WinISD tuning?

 

[Downunderwonder]

Spent a bit of time searching about the vast expanse of TB for 2x15 cabs.

Sunn 2000s jumps out. Seriously thinking of building one as it fits in my car and it would remove temptation to ever take a single 15 on a small gig and wind up undergunned.

The cab is 12.5 cubes and appears a happy accident rather than anything influenced by Theile and Small. The lack of depth appeals as much as anything. 48x30x15 is big in a good way. Tips up into station wagaon and easy going rolling it edgeways.

Open to any better ideas for 2x15 with the e140. JBL recommend 4 cu.ft per driver and 40hz tuning. I could do cookie cutter 4 ports + divider to their plans, but it bugs me that JBL doesn't tally with WinISD beta.

I saw a large very deep cab on back of a red pichup truck in a few threads, don't know if it's real JBL or someone slapped a badge on it. That kind of depth is no good to me.

Others have had e140 in the EV design T600, the Fs is a bit different and I didn't find the specs on that box.

Tall, wide and skinny does spin my wheels. Heavy is ok.

 

[edbass]

Spent a bit of time searching about the vast expanse of TB for 2x15 cabs.

Sunn 2000s jumps out. Seriously thinking of building one as it fits in my car and it would remove temptation to ever take a single 15 on a small gig and wind up undergunned.

The cab is 12.5 cubes and appears a happy accident rather than anything influenced by Theile and Small. The lack of depth appeals as much as anything. 48x30x15 is big in a good way. Tips up into station wagaon and easy going rolling it edgeways.

Open to any better ideas for 2x15 with the e140. JBL recommend 4 cu.ft per driver and 40hz tuning. I could do cookie cutter 4 ports + divider to their plans, but it bugs me that JBL doesn't tally with WinISD beta.

I saw a large very deep cab on back of a red pichup truck in a few threads, don't know if it's real JBL or someone slapped a badge on it. That kind of depth is no good to me.

Others have had e140 in the EV design T600, the Fs is a bit different and I didn't find the specs on that box.

Tall, wide and skinny does spin my wheels. Heavy is ok.

Theile and Small parameters were still almost a decade away from even existing when the 2000S was designed. All of the old Sunn boxes sound good with JBL's for bass guitar, "happy accident" or not.
WinISD is an amusing toy and can indeed be useful as a reference, but keep in mind that the design goal of a MI box usually isn't the same as it is for designing a SR box.
Check out how WinISD interprets the compatability between a JBL D130F and a Fender Vibroverb enclosure compared to how that combination sounded when SRV was wailing through it and you'll get what I mean.
If the human ear actually processed and interpreted sound like a RTA with a reference mic it would be different.

Anyway... Even though on paper the 2000S seems managable, in the flesh it's a big cumbersome beast.
The 200S cab is 42x24x15 which really doesn't sound much smaller than the 2000S cab's 48x30x15, but here they are side by side;

A 200S is pretty managable, a 2000S is kinda like wrestling with a bear.

Also keep in mind that the published 200S/2000S specs are actually off by 2" in height (casters), and are external dimensions.
If you decide to proceed with your 2000S project, Conrad Sundholm will sell you original plans for building an accurate one.

Good Luck!

 

[nysbob]

The 2000S box may be a beast to move, but it's still a great box.

I'll never forget the first time I plugged into one.

KABOOM!

 

[edbass]

The 2000S box may be a beast to move, but it's still a great box.

I'll never forget the first time I plugged into one.

KABOOM!

There is no doubt about that, the 2000S cabs have a presence; or maybe more accurately an omnipresence about them that their "little brother" Sunns don't quite have.

 

[Sunnmon]

Thank You EDBASS.
You put into words what many have thought: "too much analysis leads to paralysis" regarding the Win-Dixie software. Norm got it right by accident!

Hard to knock a Sunn 200S/2000S for tone.
Wonder why Brother Barry, Jack Cassady and Phil Lesh all used D-140's??

Peace and Happiness to all in 2012

 

[Korladis]

The 2000S is gigantic indeed, but it's also an amazing sounding cab. Works very well with a D-180, too, in my opinion.

I put very large, heavy castors on mine to make it slightly less awkward to move.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Awesome pic, thanks. I think it's worth the extra plywood to do a bigger cab if it gets more "omnipresence". I read a few guys reports that the big one blows away the "small" one.

Bear wrestling matches must be avoided with my back the way it is. I'll have to use the ancient Chinese marshall art "many hands" on any 2x15. My current 1x15 is too much and it's awkward and it's not even 4 cube. 2x15 means I'm absolutely forced to get help on stairs and the rest of the time it tips and rolls.

Getting back to sound qualities, I haven't actually heard any clips of the 2000s doing clean tones. Nothing weird in clean tone?

 

[johnk_10]

i've had both the 2000S and 200S cabs (still have a 200S with two K140's in it) and while i think the huge 2000S maybe sounded a little bit better, the 200S is the one that i prefer due to it not being such a monster to schlep. believe me, a JBL loaded 200S is definitely the real deal.

 

[Tom Howland]

i've had both the 2000S and 200S cabs (still have a 200S with two K140's in it) and while i think the huge 2000S maybe sounded a little bit better, the 200S is the one that i prefer due to it not being such a monster to schlep. believe me, a JBL loaded 200S is definitely the real deal.

I agree, my first real rig was a JBL loaded 200s.
I still remember the smile of plugging in my 1966 EBO into it.

 

[Downunderwonder]

I notice baby bear has a single strap handle. Were all bass players 6'4" and 250 lb back in the day?

Stranger still, big daddy bear has no handles. What's up with that? Did they give up trying to kid anyone it could be handled alone?

 

[Korladis]

The 2000S cab has two handles, actually. They're both on one side, though.

 

[chadds]

If I remember the 200s was advertised as the better designed of the two. They aren't identical inside are they? Besides size.

 

[Korladis]

They're very similar inside, from what I've seen. With the back taken off, the 2000S cab looks very much like the 200S cab in the pic does... except bigger, obviously.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Pretty well sold on big daddy bear at this stage. I emailed Conrad about getting the plans.

Nobody mentions e140 in a 2000s but they have a squidgeon more xmax than the EV in Sartori's cab so worth a crack I think.

 

[edbass]

Thank You EDBASS.
You put into words what many have thought: "too much analysis leads to paralysis" regarding the Win-Dixie software. Norm got it right by accident!

Well, I think Conrad mostly designed them; Norm played them.
And as far as being an "accident", the cabinet wasn't Conrad Sundholm's first rodeo, he was already an experienced builder.
Also, he sent the cab to JBL's engineers for them to check out before production. This was back in the Ed May (one of my icons as an adolescent) era at JBL, obviously before software programs; well before Neville Thiele and Richard Small had even met. JBL approved.

While enclosure response software and CAD CAM technology are IMO certainly useful and productive tools, and have made it easy for almost anyone to proclaim themselves a transducer guru, designing a production MI cab that actually sounds good still takes a little elbow grease, some wasted wood and lots of “ears on” experience.

Hard to knock a Sunn 200S/2000S for tone.
Wonder why Brother Barry, Jack Cassady and Phil Lesh all used D-140's??

Peace and Happiness to all in 2012

The old JBL MI drivers are certainly tone machines, and the Sunn cabs brought out the best in them. However to be fair the choices weren't nearly as diverse and the options were pretty limited in those days.

i've had both the 2000S and 200S cabs (still have a 200S with two K140's in it) and while i think the huge 2000S maybe sounded a little bit better, the 200S is the one that i prefer due to it not being such a monster to schlep. believe me, a JBL loaded 200S is definitely the real deal.

Absolutely. The two cabs sound very much the same; for lack of a more accurate description, the 2000S just sounds bigger.
I think the side ported 215S/M/V cabs hold their own with either one as well.

They're very similar inside, from what I've seen. With the back taken off, the 2000S cab looks very much like the 200S cab in the pic does... except bigger, obviously.

Here’s a 2000S open from the back;

Here’s the insides of a 200S;

And, here’s one showing the handles on the 2000S;

 

[johnk_10]

............................I think the side ported 215S/M/V cabs hold their own with either one as well....................

+100

 

[dhsierra1]

how would you compare the 200/2000 Sunn's against the Fender Showman/Bassman cabs w/tone rings using JBL D140Fs?

Or the 2-15 Kustom cabs loaded w/those drivers?

I realize it's kind of apples/oranges, but thought it worth doing the A/B

 

[johnk_10]

how would you compare the 200/2000 Sunn's against the Fender Showman/Bassman cabs w/tone rings using JBL D140Fs?

IMO, the tone ring cabs a different animal, especially since they're a single 15", but i think that if you get all of the rattles out of one, they're easily as good, and IMO, even better.

Or the 2-15 Kustom cabs loaded w/those drivers?

Again, a different cab, but i always loved those ported 2x15 Kustoms with JBL's. they were great sounding and very solid cabs.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Not clear which cab is the subject of the reply.