Why do people discrimanate?

[john turner]

Originally posted by DeepDeath
jt is an example of a college education well learned.

thanks . i think. , although honestly most of my morality/ethics ideas come shamelessly from independant readings of kant and kierkegaard, among many others.

after all, my college degree is in electrical engineering. not much room for philosophy in that ciriculum.

 

[john turner]

Originally posted by clef360
wow, now we're getting into moral relativism and all that fun stuff, but that would take forever so I'm not even going to address that here (pm or email me for more debating fun)

shoot, we can discuss it here, that'd be fine. i'll clean it up if it gets messy

by "apply those standards" do you mean like killing say a murderer because killing is agaisnt your beliefs, or just observing to yourself that what that person did was wrong according to your own beliefs?

no, that's jumping the gun, i'm talking about the intellectual honesty of actually making a moral judgement of someone else based on one's own moral standards, not applying any kind of punishment/reward system based on following those morals.

my point is that i don't think people have the right to even have make a moral judgement on the interpersonal behaviour of other consenting adults - such as homosexuals, not whether they need to accept it or not, but that fact that they don't even have the right to consider it.

 

[MJ5150]

"You're telling me point blank that I will gravitate to people I feel similar to... and that if I won't admit that I'm full of crap."
Alright Brad, I see your point. I made no assumptions about what you would be doing in a bar. That is what I meant. You made a comment about me not knowing you and how would I know what you would be in a bar for. You very well could be the only person I know who is not naturally inclined to feel association with people we feel similar to. NOT naturally inclined to exclusively associate with, but naturally drawn to when seeking friendship. BTW, what is so negative about this anyway? I am the one who said I felt this way, and all of the sudden people jumped on me for being close minded and full of BS. OTOH, if I chose ONLY friends similar to me, then I see a problem. If I made a comment along the lines of, "I only befriend straight white men who believe in God", then we have a serious problem, and any criticism of me is fully deserved for being an a$$hole.


"you're repeating what you've already said in this thread AND saying you never said it."
I am gonna stick to my guns here Brad. I still never said I use appearance, and assumptions to choose my association. I use those things when I am evaluating who MIGHT be a potential friend. What happens after my initial contact with someone depends solely on what comes from their mouth. I still make an effort to communicate with several people, but I have to start with one person. I will obviously start with who I think may be the best choice, and see if I am correct. I leave my options open.

"I'd probably talk to whomever talked to me."
OK, here is one thing that makes you and I different. I am the guy who will walk up to you and start a conversation. Because of my background, I try to immediately establish common ground with people, so I observe things about them, like clothes, age, hair style. You can normally tell alot about a person based on that. I want to talk to someone about them, not me. I won't approach someone and say "Hey, see my shirt, I like this brand/band/team. Do you?" OTOH, I would ask "I saw your shirt/hat/whatever, do you like that/them?" and see what happens from there. To make friends, you must be a friend. What confuses me is that you mentioned earlier that you are outgoing. I figured you would be the one to take the initiative.

Hehehe, the pretty little rabbit. I would trust that the person handing me the rabbit would give me that information up front. To me, I should not have to ask things like that. Maybe this is a trust issue. I extend people trust more than you do I guess. Not that it matters, but in that situation the first thing I would ask in return is "For how long?"

"My wife and I are a couple with a kid but we associate with couples without kids and even single people, equally."
Yeah, so do we. Well actually I take that back. We have more friends who have kids. This is because of the fact that I want to know the parent of my kids friends. It isn't that big of an issue now that our kids are older, but when they were younger our friends with no kids would want to do things at night, go to nicer restaurants, take mini vacations, weekend ski trips, stuff like that. Having two kids made it difficult unless we could get grandma to babysit. Naturally, we spent more time with other parents since we could go places all together and let our kids play while we associated. We maintained frindships with everyone, but found ourselves doing more with other parents. Not a bad thing.

"Not one of them has an automatic leg up."
How old is your child? In our house, when it was time to go see "Disney On Ice", our other parent friends had an automatic leg up every time.


"I'm not uncomfortable in a room because I don't know anyone."
When I look around and see people talking and laughing without me I feel left out. I want to be a part of it. I can survive hanging out alone, but I will have a much better time if I can find a person, or group to be a part of.

"and I'm sure you might think this is BS"
Nope. Read through that paragraph and found myself relating to it. I have walked away from many a musician thinking "man, what a doofus". I have walked away from someone who looked like I would share some common interests with wondering how I messed up on that one.

"But for the sake of this exercise, let's say the guy holding the bass."
I was attempting to make the point how people tend to be drawn to people they feel similar to. It is not a learned behavior, just instinct. I was then going to emphasize how our assumptions based on appearance can mislead us, and refer to some examples. We are all familiar with the saying, "when you assume, you risk making an a$$ out of you and me". Thus, we humans can not exclusively trust our assumptions. We have to make time to meet, and learn about all kinds of people. Do NOT limit ourselves to people who look like we do, or who look like they like the things we do. If we do, we are making a serious error that will be a detriment to our social development.

This all started when I stated that I would initially be drawn to another straight man over a gay man since I feel that I would have more in common with the straight man. No one asked me if I would speak to the gay man, or how I would feel if the straight guy turned out to be a child molester. Instead I was told my feelings are BS, and I was close/narrow/small minded. You all just assumed I would shun the gay man, and automatically make the straight guy my buddy regardless of who he turned out to be.

So....honestly....do I make any sense?

I made mention before that I have been told I am a bigot for not agreeing with homosexuality. At one time, I wondered if I was being a bigot for not agreeing, so I asked around. No gay person said I was a bigot, not one I spoke with. They understood my desire to be heterosexual, and respected it as I do regarding their lifestyle. The grief came from straight people. Weird. If anyone has the right to think I am a bigot, seems like it would be the gay population.

-Mike

 

[via satellite]

Since people keep mentioning science, I think it's about time to look at some research:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

The consensus seems to be that there are both physiological and psychological factors at play, and it comes down to a nature v. nurture argument. Like most questions of human identity (including things like gender identity), it is difficult to say what is the source of traits.

jt- you're my new hero; I'm a big fan of Kirkegaard and Kant, too.

 

[clef360]

my point is that i don't think people have the right to even have make a moral judgement on the interpersonal behaviour of other consenting adults - such as homosexuals, not whether they need to accept it or not, but that fact that they don't even have the right to consider it. [/B]

I think that people should have the right to consider anything they want. What people think in their own head should be their own business and it should stay that way. So, I really hope you didn't mean what you said in that way, that you don't think people have the right to consider something in their own minds. One's character is judged (yeah, that word) by his or her actions, and it's up to that individual to decide what goes on upstairs.

Yeah, I think i repeated myself a time or two, but you get the idea.

 

[john turner]

Originally posted by via satellite


jt- you're my new hero; I'm a big fan of Kirkegaard and Kant, too.

oh, cool. yeah, ole' mr. graveyard himself is where i got the inspiration for our first album name.

 

[john turner]

Originally posted by clef360
I think that people should have the right to consider anything they want. What people think in their own head should be their own business and it should stay that way. So, I really hope you didn't mean what you said in that way, that you don't think people have the right to consider something in their own minds. One's character is judged (yeah, that word) by his or her actions, and it's up to that individual to decide what goes on upstairs.

Yeah, I think i repeated myself a time or two, but you get the idea.

well, yeah, i guess i'm getting a bit tired. of course folks have the right to think whatever they want, to consider whatever they want. the issue comes when they act on it.

my point is that it's not a question of tolerance or intolerance so much as it is one of intellectual honesty - one must be ever-vigilant as to how one applies one's own moral code, vigilant against proselytizing, persecution and prejudice. after all, one of the great accomplishments of morality is to help build societies and strong social groups, not tear them down or weaken them.

 

[clef360]

Originally posted by john turner
one of the great accomplishments of morality is to help build societies and strong social groups, not tear them down or weaken them.

hm.. not so sure about this one. Well, maybe i'm not sure what you mean by this, because for morality to build a strong society or social group, everyone in the group would have to at least agree on some set of moral values or else that would fragment the group. That's one of the problems of our society and government today. Since we have so many differing cultures, religions, viewpoints, whatever, and the morals that come with them in this country, we're very much divided on many subjects. So for example, when a law is made about a controversial subject, a large portion of the population isn't getting represented, which can cause resentment, or just general unhappiness that they're not getting good representation in "their" government. I'm not saying that I have a viable solution for this, but yeah...I'm getting tired too so i'm rambling. I hope that made sense.

 

[MJ5150]

hey man....if you guys are tired, maybe you should go to bed?

-Mike

 

[john turner]

Originally posted by clef360
hm.. not so sure about this one. Well, maybe i'm not sure what you mean by this, because for morality to build a strong society or social group, everyone in the group would have to at least agree on some set of moral values or else that would fragment the group. That's one of the problems of our society and government today. Since we have so many differing cultures, religions, viewpoints, whatever, and the morals that come with them in this country, we're very much divided on many subjects. So for example, when a law is made about a controversial subject, a large portion of the population isn't getting represented, which can cause resentment, or just general unhappiness that they're not getting good representation in "their" government. I'm not saying that I have a viable solution for this, but yeah...I'm getting tired too so i'm rambling. I hope that made sense.

that's the paradox - the intersection of similar moralities amongst a population is where a society can flourish, but every individual needs to remember that their own personal moral code does not necessarily apply universally - there will be areas where those moral codes do not overlap.

without morality of some sort, society would be impossible - read the brothers karamzov . well, actually, the cliff notes would do, the book itself is pretty hellishly boring, imo.

yep. bedtime.

 

[zanthrax]

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
BTW I've still never met anyone who says they chose their sexual persuasion. I know I didn't.

Did you?

Originally posted by MJ5150

Brad Johnson...I did not choose to be heterosexual.

Case closed? If not the only answer I can see is that homosexuality is a choice but it's not presented to everyone.

So, who gets to choose between heterosexuality and homosexuality? Why didn't you have to do that (you = everyone who belives homosexuality is a choice)?

 

[yoshi]

My view on the whole matter - people, especially teenagers, have too many rights so end up complaining about how they want more/'equality' (equality meaning a balance tipped in the favour of their current campaign). Spare the rod, spoil the child. Swish!

I won't post anything with a valuable meaning as that's pretty much been covered already.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I can't be bothered to read all this thread now - don't you guys get out at the weekend? - but it keeps coming up, so I will just say that there's nothing wrong with "discriminating".

I have very discriminating tastes!

If indescriminate violence is univerally seen as bad - then that must mean that discriminating violence is a good thing!!

 

[Gia]

Originally posted by greenbassfreak
....When i told my friends i was a lesbian.....

I don't really care, but if you're gonna make stuff up....at least cover your tracks, darling

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108191

 

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by MJ5150
"You're telling me point blank that I will gravitate to people I feel similar to... and that if I won't admit that I'm full of crap."
Alright Brad, I see your point. I made no assumptions about what you would be doing in a bar. That is what I meant. You made a comment about me not knowing you and how would I know what you would be in a bar for. You very well could be the only person I know who is not naturally inclined to feel association with people we feel similar to. NOT naturally inclined to exclusively associate with, but naturally drawn to when seeking friendship. BTW, what is so negative about this anyway? I am the one who said I felt this way, and all of the sudden people jumped on me for being close minded and full of BS. OTOH, if I chose ONLY friends similar to me, then I see a problem. If I made a comment along the lines of, "I only befriend straight white men who believe in God", then we have a serious problem, and any criticism of me is fully deserved for being an a$$hole.

The tone of your posts have changed over the course of this thread

"you're repeating what you've already said in this thread AND saying you never said it."
I am gonna stick to my guns here Brad. I still never said I use appearance, and assumptions to choose my association. I use those things when I am evaluating who MIGHT be a potential friend. What happens after my initial contact with someone depends solely on what comes from their mouth. I still make an effort to communicate with several people, but I have to start with one person. I will obviously start with who I think may be the best choice, and see if I am correct. I leave my options open.

Look at your earlier posts. In your streamlined descriptions it sounds like this "is" what you do when choosing associations.

"I'd probably talk to whomever talked to me."
OK, here is one thing that makes you and I different. I am the guy who will walk up to you and start a conversation. Because of my background, I try to immediately establish common ground with people, so I observe things about them, like clothes, age, hair style. You can normally tell alot about a person based on that. I want to talk to someone about them, not me. I won't approach someone and say "Hey, see my shirt, I like this brand/band/team. Do you?" OTOH, I would ask "I saw your shirt/hat/whatever, do you like that/them?" and see what happens from there. To make friends, you must be a friend. What confuses me is that you mentioned earlier that you are outgoing. I figured you would be the one to take the initiative.

You're talking about appearances again

I know what you mean, I'm just curious if you realize what you're doing?

Hehehe, the pretty little rabbit. I would trust that the person handing me the rabbit would give me that information up front. To me, I should not have to ask things like that. Maybe this is a trust issue. I extend people trust more than you do I guess. Not that it matters, but in that situation the first thing I would ask in return is "For how long?"

People don't automatically give you all of the important details up front. That's why, until I see otherwise, most people have a level playing field with me.

I'd ask how long, too

"My wife and I are a couple with a kid but we associate with couples without kids and even single people, equally."
Yeah, so do we. Well actually I take that back. We have more friends who have kids. This is because of the fact that I want to know the parent of my kids friends. It isn't that big of an issue now that our kids are older, but when they were younger our friends with no kids would want to do things at night, go to nicer restaurants, take mini vacations, weekend ski trips, stuff like that. Having two kids made it difficult unless we could get grandma to babysit. Naturally, we spent more time with other parents since we could go places all together and let our kids play while we associated. We maintained frindships with everyone, but found ourselves doing more with other parents. Not a bad thing.

"Not one of them has an automatic leg up."
How old is your child? In our house, when it was time to go see "Disney On Ice", our other parent friends had an automatic leg up every time.

19, so those days are long gone.

"I'm not uncomfortable in a room because I don't know anyone."
When I look around and see people talking and laughing without me I feel left out. I want to be a part of it. I can survive hanging out alone, but I will have a much better time if I can find a person, or group to be a part of.

The first thing I'd do if I saw them laughing without me would be to check my fly.

I guess I'm just one of those rare people who can either mingle or be by myself and be happy either way. I spend all my time talking about me so who I'm talking to is unimportant.

Just kidding.

"and I'm sure you might think this is BS"
Nope. Read through that paragraph and found myself relating to it. I have walked away from many a musician thinking "man, what a doofus". I have walked away from someone who looked like I would share some common interests with wondering how I messed up on that one.

"But for the sake of this exercise, let's say the guy holding the bass."
I was attempting to make the point how people tend to be drawn to people they feel similar to. It is not a learned behavior, just instinct. I was then going to emphasize how our assumptions based on appearance can mislead us, and refer to some examples. We are all familiar with the saying, "when you assume, you risk making an a$$ out of you and me". Thus, we humans can not exclusively trust our assumptions. We have to make time to meet, and learn about all kinds of people. Do NOT limit ourselves to people who look like we do, or who look like they like the things we do. If we do, we are making a serious error that will be a detriment to our social development.

I can't wait for people similar to me because I'm so damned unique. Judging from what I've seen in life, I'm a real oddball. My musical tastes are all over the board, I'm suspicious of anything government or business related, hate big government, am fiscally conservative... and a so-called Liberal. I'm an intent listener but I'm also very opinionated and each and every opinion is based on serious thought beforehand. I'm very analytical so holes in reasoning (details) just jump out to me. I like building things and I like tearing things up too. I'm distrustful of some religious types, believe in live and let live and just get genuinely perturbed at what I see as rampant ignorance and intolerance out here. There's more... but I genuinely don't run into many people like me. And you may have noticed I'm not too fond of stereotypes.

This all started when I stated that I would initially be drawn to another straight man over a gay man since I feel that I would have more in common with the straight man. No one asked me if I would speak to the gay man, or how I would feel if the straight guy turned out to be a child molester. Instead I was told my feelings are BS, and I was close/narrow/small minded. You all just assumed I would shun the gay man, and automatically make the straight guy my buddy regardless of who he turned out to be.

Not really. You stated how you would handle the situation. IMO it was up to you to be clear about how you would handle it and you clearly didn't say all of this initially. I still think it's a superficial way to look at the situation and way too much was left to speculation. The whole thing was based on assumptions on your end, not ours. I know I didn't "assume" what you didn't know about each situation... you laid them out and left out loads of details.

Also remember, you laid out some scenarios for me and straight up told me that if I didn't admit that I would do what "you" said I would do, "I" was full of crap.

So....honestly....do I make any sense?

I made mention before that I have been told I am a bigot for not agreeing with homosexuality. At one time, I wondered if I was being a bigot for not agreeing, so I asked around. No gay person said I was a bigot, not one I spoke with. They understood my desire to be heterosexual, and respected it as I do regarding their lifestyle. The grief came from straight people. Weird. If anyone has the right to think I am a bigot, seems like it would be the gay population.

-Mike

Maybe I missed it... who here told you that you were a bigot for not agreeing with homosexuality?

And what is there to "agree" with?

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by MJ5150

So....honestly....do I make any sense?


Nope!!


I made mention before that I have been told I am a bigot for not agreeing with homosexuality. At one time, I wondered if I was being a bigot for not agreeing, so I asked around. No gay person said I was a bigot, not one I spoke with. They understood my desire to be heterosexual, and respected it as I do regarding their lifestyle. The grief came from straight people. Weird. If anyone has the right to think I am a bigot, seems like it would be the gay population.

-Mike

I too find this concept of "agreeing" with homosexuality - a bit strange.

There is no rule that says you have to like every gay person or agree with what they say.

But most democratic countries have laws that say you shouldn't treat anybody detrimentally, just because of their sexual orientation - same with religion, gender etc.

I can't see why anybody has a problem with this - unless they feel compelled to go around denouncing others?

But if somebody went round saying : I don't agree !! Then I would just think - yeah right! I respect my mentally-challenged comrades!!

 

[PollyBass]

Originally posted by BrokenAngel
I don't really care, but if you're gonna make stuff up....at least cover your tracks, darling

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108191

Hmmmmmmmm. She's right, if your going to try to be sneaky, at least TRY to be sneaky.



That is Sub-par sneakyness.

 

[Melf]

You don't mind if I call you Brad, do you? Now Brad, instead of calling my statement idiotic, how about you back up your point with some facts or a compelling argument rather than saying something like that.

 

[OnederTone]

Originally posted by Melf
You don't mind if I call you Brad, do you? Now Brad, instead of calling my statement idiotic, how about you back up your point with some facts or a compelling argument rather than saying something like that.

and wouldn't it be nice if Humans acted *better* than animals?

(slanted and I know)

here's the deal... stating that animals exhibt X behaviour doesn't sway folks that consider humanity higher in a heirachy of life than animals because of our ability to reason, the concept of self control...

not to speak for Brad, but your statement didn't argue anything either.

 

[MJ5150]

"The tone of your posts have changed over the course of this thread"
Yes, I had to. Human emotion is lost on a message board. Perhaps if I was speaking with you face to face, you would have a better idea of what I was trying to express. Not that you are a moron, it is just easier to discuss emotions in person. I like my computer, but it does not serve me well in these instances.

"Look at your earlier posts."
I did. I guess I just read them differently, partly because I see what I am trying to type. I used the words chance, potential, possibility, initially, and impression quite a bit. I thought I was clear that I was referring to who to talk with first. Not only, just initially.

"I'm just curious if you realize what you're doing?"
Yeah, I realize. To me I am not doing anything negative, or guilty of any kind of narrow mindedness. I have to start somewhere, can't approach everyone at one time. I just got the feeling I was being painted as narrow/close/small minded for feeling drawn to people I feel similar to. So then, you find yourself alone in a room full of people. Suppose you wanted to start a conversation with someone and hang out for a bit. Who would you approach first IF you decided to do so?

"People don't automatically give you all of the important details up front."
Perhaps you will think I am full of BS, but in my life I have yet to have this problem. I guess that is why you and I are different again. I suppose when something like this happens to me in the future, I will better understand how you process information in those situations. Shoot, I may even think back to this very thread, and some guy named Brad Johnson.

"I'm a real oddball."
Well, you said it, so I will agree. I have not run into anyone quite like you in my life. Not that who you are is bad. I had a hard time from the outset of this thread understanding how you could be critical of me, and how I operate. I have seen guys like you on TV, but never had one as a friend. I don't normally let other people have such an effect on me as you do. I consider myself really laid back. When I come across ignorant, or intolerant people, I do not get perturbed, I just feel sorry for them. I get frustrated with gov't/big business, but getting overly suspicious, mad or paranoid would only make my life worse. I choose to focus on the things good in my life, and not let that stuff bother me.

"You stated how you would handle the situation."
Yep, I did. I stated how I would initially handle it. Who I would be initially drawn to.

"straight up told me that if I didn't admit that I would do what "you" said I would do, "I" was full of crap."
Sorry. You are quite the unique person. You admitted there are not many people like you. It's not a bad thing. I falsely assumed you were like most other people, and drawn to others like ourselves. I thank you for taking the time over the weekend to keep talking to me in this thread to explain yourself.

"who here told you that"
No one here. I actually made an effort to verbally speak with some individuals who I know are gay, men and women.

"And what is there to "agree" with?"
Another persons lifestyle.

-Mike