Zon basses - is everything OK ?

[Jefus]

Hey guys, anyone well versed in Lane Poor pickups?

Zon had sent me a message about a month ago asking if I wanted P/J positioning on the pickups or something else...Mr Zon and I had spoken about maybe doing a sidewinder single coil Lane Poor in the P position, and we settled on speaking at some point to hash it out...I sent Zon a message about speaking on the phone soon to close the loop on which pickups and where, so I want to be a little bit prepared for that conversation, which may happen today or tomorrow.

I've gone over a number of different options in my mind and like a few options...FWIW, I do better usually with *less* choice (less fiddling/twiddling) and prefer middier/fatter tone (P to J). Not a fan of scooped really. I rarely, if ever, use bridge pickups. With that in mind, I have the following pickup sets:

2 Lane Poor SB 3950s...wide aperture, single coil (I *think* there's a dummy coil to minimize hum when used solo). Supposedly P bassish.
2 Lane Poor M3.5HBs...2 narrow aperture coils reverse wound reverse polarity so they are true hum cancelling. Supposedly MMish.
1 Lane Poor M3.5W...same as the SB but in a bigger EMG style shell, which I think would look better if going with 1 pickup bass.

Idea #1:
Anyone like the idea of BOTH of the SBs right next to each other, wired in series to make a "twin jazz" kind of thing in the P position? In theory I think this would sound like an overwound P bass, but with the LP clarity and air it may be the sound I've been chasing forever. Or is that pie in the sky and it'll end up being a middy, muddy, hummy mess? Or maybe it'll turn out to be a Wunkay kind of tone, which I am a fan of! I need someone who knows these pickups to help with that!

Idea #2:
SBs in P/J position, don't mess with what ain't broke.

Idea #3:
2 HBs in MM and Pish positions. BrInG tHe ThUnDeR (TM)

Idea #4:
M3.5W in the P position. KISS.

Idea #5:
Single SB in the P position. sleeeeeek.

Idea #6:
Last one...HB in bridge position, M3.5W in neck position. Another classic setup.

Any insight or help is much appreciated. Also, I've reached out to a couple of LP experts (here on TB and not on TB) but haven't heard anything back yet. I guess some people aren't glued to their smartphone and addicted to this forum. I am not one of those people.

Thought about making this its own thread, but ultimately thought it may be better here. Thank you guys again in advance. I've put this bass out of my mind for so long, it's way past time to get back on it and start giving a push.

When I brought up alternate pickup positions Joe got kind of excited. He'd just watched whatever Beatles documentary had just come out and realized Paul had two pickups, both closer to the neck. So if you really want to bring the thunder, put one in the P spot and one up by the neck, a la Billy Sheehan!

 

[Jeff Scott]

When I brought up alternate pickup positions Joe got kind of excited. He'd just watched whatever Beatles documentary had just come out and realized Paul had two pickups, both closer to the neck. So if you really want to bring the thunder, put one in the P spot and one up by the neck, a la Billy Sheehan!

I had Joe do something kinda sorta like that to the fretted '98 Sonus 5/1 I had.

I rechristened it a 5/1.2.

 

[Rumblefisher]

When I brought up alternate pickup positions Joe got kind of excited. He'd just watched whatever Beatles documentary had just come out and realized Paul had two pickups, both closer to the neck. So if you really want to bring the thunder, put one in the P spot and one up by the neck, a la Billy Sheehan!

Great thought, except I find the mudbucker a little in the way for slapping. That will certainly bring the bass out though!!

 

[Rumblefisher]

I had Joe do something kinda sorta like that to the fretted '98 Sonus 5/1 I had.
View attachment 5109511

I rechristened it a 5/1.2.

Yes, kinda thought something like this with the soapbars. Mid scooped sounding together?

 

[Jeff Scott]

Yes, kinda thought something like this with the soapbars. Mid scooped sounding together?

In this particular bass there was no mid scoop as Joe installed an (at the time) prototype Bartolini preamp that buffered the pickups from each other. However, the other side of the coin was that there was a volume gain (around 5dB or so) with both pickups fully on. The controls on the bass are individual volume controls with pull switches for series/parallel coils their respective pickup, and stacked passive tone roll-offs.

 

[kumimajava]

Yes, kinda thought something like this with the soapbars. Mid scooped sounding together?

I've not got any direct experience of the LP pickups, but I'm a big fan of the two-singles-in-series sound. Adding a 'series switch' to twin-single basses (like a Jazz) is a frequent mod I do

However, your description of the different options is a little confusing to me - or pehraps I'm reading them wrong.

Typically 'series' is more low-end heavy & treble-light than parallel - not so much mid-emphasized. When you mention "Or is that pie in the sky and it'll end up being a middy, muddy, hummy mess?" in your Idea 1, this does not sound (to me) as a natural description of the series sound (i.e. middy & muddy at the same time, sounds strange). If anything, I'd expect the 'muddy' to be more likely from putting pickups closer to the neck.

In general, I quite like putting 2 pickups in the P-ish + one-right-next-to-it (but on the bridge-side). The MTD Super series comes to mind . I don't recall whether yours is a 4 or a 5-string, but I'm typically not a fan of putting pickups neck-side of the P-position; the basses i've heard with that config tend to more naturally drift in the 'muddy' direction.

So I guess in your descripton the P+MM locations would be my preference. Single-coils or HB/MM shapes should work nicely. From a practical point of view, I like two soapbars side-by-side, since it gives a nice 'ramp-like' playing surface, which I find comfortable. (Again, the MTD Super is a nice example)

If installing two singles, I would be tempted to add a series/parallel switch, but I know that goes against your KISS-idea. Perhaps I'd at least actively try both series & parallel configs, before committing to only one wiring permanently. On some basses, i also like using the series/parallel switch as a natural on-board 'boost' feature, but how well that works might depend on the specific pickups you use.

 

[Rumblefisher]

I've not got any direct experience of the LP pickups, but I'm a big fan of the two-singles-in-series sound. Adding a 'series switch' to twin-single basses (like a Jazz) is a frequent mod I do

However, your description of the different options is a little confusing to me - or pehraps I'm reading them wrong.

Typically 'series' is more low-end heavy & treble-light than parallel - not so much mid-emphasized. When you mention "Or is that pie in the sky and it'll end up being a middy, muddy, hummy mess?" in your Idea 1, this does not sound (to me) as a natural description of the series sound (i.e. middy & muddy at the same time, sounds strange). If anything, I'd expect the 'muddy' to be more likely from putting pickups closer to the neck.

In general, I quite like putting 2 pickups in the P-ish + one-right-next-to-it (but on the bridge-side). The MTD Super series comes to mind . I don't recall whether yours is a 4 or a 5-string, but I'm typically not a fan of putting pickups neck-side of the P-position; the basses i've heard with that config tend to more naturally drift in the 'muddy' direction.

So I guess in your descripton the P+MM locations would be my preference. Single-coils or HB/MM shapes should work nicely. From a practical point of view, I like two soapbars side-by-side, since it gives a nice 'ramp-like' playing surface, which I find comfortable. (Again, the MTD Super is a nice example)

If installing two singles, I would be tempted to add a series/parallel switch, but I know that goes against your KISS-idea. Perhaps I'd at least actively try both series & parallel configs, before committing to only one wiring permanently. On some basses, i also like using the series/parallel switch as a natural on-board 'boost' feature, but how well that works might depend on the specific pickups you use.

Great post, thank you! By middy muddy mess I think I was just trying to be alliterative...basically wanted to convey lack of clarity. Yes you are right it's more bass than mid in series

Ok...im liking this. So let's say we go 2 soapbars wired in series in p-ish position...any idea if they will hum ?

 

[kumimajava]

Great post, thank you! By middy muddy mess I think I was just trying to be alliterative...basically wanted to convey lack of clarity. Yes you are right it's more bass than mid in series

Ok...im liking this. So let's say we go 2 soapbars wired in series in p-ish position...any idea if they will hum ?

Happy to help

Whether they'd hum or not - depends on pickups. Many soapbars are naturally humbucking, but there are also sopbars that are singles (e.g. Bartolini singularity, etc.). My guess would be that if they're sold as matched pair of singles in soapbar covers, they should be humcancelling - but best to check with the manufacturer.

But equally, if both of the soapbars are already humcancelling, and/or dual coils, wiring all those in series may be a LOT of output. Then again - many people (myself included) like the sound of the Dingwall pickups 'in series', and those are split-coil humbuchers in soapbar shells, so it may be ok.

Really curious to see how this turns out

 

[Jefus]

@Rumblefisher So I'm guessing this means there's some movement for you? Congrats! I hope it gets to you soon!

@RodRy Did you and Joe talk about what the bridge will look like in your bass?

 

[RodRy]

@Rumblefisher So I'm guessing this means there's some movement for you? Congrats! I hope it gets to you soon!

@RodRy Did you and Joe talk about what the bridge will look like in your bass?

Not yet, no. I will try reaching out to Martin and seeing if he can put me in touch. I am also wondering what special sauce you have where it seems like you are able to get basses built from Joe quicker than most.

 

[Rumblefisher]

@Rumblefisher So I'm guessing this means there's some movement for you? Congrats! I hope it gets to you soon!

@RodRy Did you and Joe talk about what the bridge will look like in your bass?

Conversation tomorrow, they haven't told me what time yet but they said definitely Saturday

Leaning toward the experimental double SB wired in series in P position...distant 2nd HB in P position. I'm banking on prior posts that the sidewinder style SBs don't have any hum. I guess we will find out.

 

[Jefus]

Not yet, no. I will try reaching out to Martin and seeing if he can put me in touch. I am also wondering what special sauce you have where it seems like you are able to get basses built from Joe quicker than most.

There are other folks that have posted that got their basses a lot quicker than mine, but I think they picked from the normal options; I think my entire bass is "off menu". And I still don't have it and don't have a delivery date. I put my deposit down two years ago today.

I think the secret is to bug him a lot. But I can't say that for sure since mine still hasn't been delivered.

 

[JuanB]

There are other folks that have posted that got their basses a lot quicker than mine, but I think they picked from the normal options; I think my entire bass is "off menu". And I still don't have it and don't have a delivery date. I put my deposit down two years ago today.

I think the secret is to bug him a lot. But I can't say that for sure since mine still hasn't been delivered.

Wow, it’s been 2 years already?

 

[Jefus]

Wow, it’s been 2 years already?

Lol! Yeah. I was in California thinking I'd get a job offer in Sacramento so I came to look at places, visit my folks in the Central Coast, and visit Joe. I got offered the job, got married in a frenzy, moved to California, quit the job for another one, and am about to put my two weeks in to take a new job. Still no bass.

I'm not bitter that I don't have it yet. But I get a little frustrated at times that the only movement seems to occur when I start bugging him.

In all fairness, the last two years have been pretty significant for Joe too, so I guess I empathize.

 

[gwangi]

Seems like they are putting out instruments from what I'm seeing on there Facebook page.

 

[BAG]

The biggest issue from a user standpoint is sliding the saddles to set the intonation usually requires the string to be loosened.

I tend to do that when adjusting intonation on most basses and guitars, even when moving the saddle towards the nut. I've had too many instances of adjusting the saddle screw to find that it hasn't moved due to the friction and the downward pressure of the string on the saddle.
And I always loosen the string when moving the saddle away from the nut..... there's too much risk that the adjustment screw will strip when working against the pressure of the string.

 

[Jefus]

I tend to do that when adjusting intonation on most basses and guitars, even when moving the saddle towards the nut. I've had too many instances of adjusting the saddle screw to find that it hasn't moved due to the friction and the downward pressure of the string on the saddle.
And I always loosen the string when moving the saddle away from the nut..... there's too much risk that the adjustment screw will strip when working against the pressure of the string.

Fair point! And truthfully I do the same. The difference is the extent to which the string needs to be loosened. And then the screw on a normal saddle helps with the precision in placing the saddle in the correct spot. Moving these usually involves a chopstick or other non-marring instrument, which, once overcoming static friction tend to move the saddle beyond its intended destination. It can be a tedious enterprise.

I'm kinda hoping Joe starts using @BeeTL 's bridges on his 8s. Mine might be the last one he builds with the original design, but mostly due to my stubbornness insisting on individual intonation and black.

 

[jim nolte]

Conversation tomorrow, they haven't told me what time yet but they said definitely Saturday

Leaning toward the experimental double SB wired in series in P position...distant 2nd HB in P position. I'm banking on prior posts that the sidewinder style SBs don't have any hum. I guess we will find out.

So did you talk to Joe Saturday ?

 

[MarkA]

Leaning toward the experimental double SB wired in series in P position...distant 2nd HB in P position. I'm banking on prior posts that the sidewinder style SBs don't have any hum. I guess we will find out.

Perhaps you've already sorted this out but, when you mention "P position," are you referring to the treble (G and D strings) coil in a split P, the bass coil, or the center-line between them? I guess you could also reference the old, single-coil Precisions, if you dig that sound, but I'm not sure of their placement relative to a split P.

In any case, it would be worth making sure that you and Joe are on the same page about it.

Good luck -- I hope that there's continued and conclusive positive movement for you with your bass!

 

[Rumblefisher]

So did you talk to Joe Saturday ?

You beat me to it...I was going to post yesterday but the day got away from me.

So...

Yes, we did speak Saturday. Mr Zon was very nice, very easy going. I will admit, I was nervous to speak with him. It's been so long and I've built this up so much in my mind that I almost didn't know where to begin. Basically, we went over everything again. He was very receptive to the idea of the 2 soapbars wired in series to create a FrankenPucker (Frankenstein + P-ish pickup + humbucker)...he was even excited about it! Only things we have left to iron out are frets (I had asked 21 but he said probably they will do 24 as that is how the neck is designed and that's how their machine is programmed...fine, I don't think this is a problem at all, I can easily live with 24) and where to put the Zon logo (previously his idea was to put it on the neck heel but that may or may not be possible...I just don't want it inlaid into the wood...personally not a fan of that).

Othwerise, good to go, he estimates it'll be done by December 2023.