Almost got robbed...

[Foamy]

I can't think of one circumstance having a gun would have make me or my family safer.

Perhaps the best reason to not buy one.
Fantastic!

 

[Brad Maestas]

Please accept my apology.

I may have read too much into it - I am subject to that as well as anyone else.

I am glad you've taken the courses. And yeah, I know, my saying don't take it personally is a bit hard to do when I am responding to you. OK, fair enough. I am sorry. I truly did not mean or try to make you out to be a fool.

I did, perhaps, read a bit much into the last bit about being safer without guns than with them, and as a gun owner you have to know that that is a very very touchy topic of debate. And I pounced all over it.

I hope, however, that people reading this thread will keep open minds about gun ownership and the responsibilities that come along with owning a gun.

I also hope that I have at least planted some seeds in some people's minds making them think a bit more about the topic.

So, please accept my sincerest apology for my unkind words.

I humbly accept!

You're right, it IS a touchy subject and not without good reason. I think it's great that we can discuss it. Thanks for your response!

BTW, I like your sig.
Shrubbery!

 

[Kael]

As someone WHO ACTUALLY has a concealed carriers liscense in OK, I'll say it was a good move. I've always been a good shot, and I'd like to see somebody get a drop on me at 21feet with an HK .45 with double action on the first shot.

First off, that assumes that the knife is drawn and ready to do damage at 21feet, and also that the shooter will simply stand there and draw. I was told a story by the cop that taught our class about how a guy was at knifepoint and tried to run before drawing.
The scumbag started to chase him, which gave the shooter time to draw, turn and fire 3shots into the scums chest. Oh, and on that as well, there are some dudes here in OKC that I've hung with at the range who you do NOT want to get in front of within 30yards.
DEADLY accurate.

Regarding OK's breaking and entering law, I would say that the possibility of gettin mowed down by a homeowner is a much better deterrent than a 'slap on the wrist' justice system. If you don't like that, move out west with the other 'granola-chewin hippies'.


Kael, I say go ahead with it, and go to H&H gunrange as well. Great folks!

I was actually planning on using H&H, but I don't know if their conceal and carry courses are going to fit into my schedule. Might still, but I'll need to shuffle a couple shows to fit into when they offer them. For the benefit of readers outside of central OK, one of the requirements for an applicant to obtain a CCL is the completion of an 8 hour course.

H&H is much easier to get to than some of the other ranges I go to. Although I still prefer outdoor ranges, even on crappy days. I got pretty spoiled for a while using the police range (it's nice to have police officers in the family). Man, they have some truly fun guns in the police gun vault. They have a fully functional Thompson with the 100 round drum. Of course, it is really only suitable for mowing down weeds, but still.

 

[DigMe]

They have a fully functional Thompson with the 100 round drum. Of course, it is really only suitable for mowing down weeds, but still.

Nice. Kahr makes some nice looking semi-auto repros of those.

bc

 

[Spector_Ray]

That is about the most irresponsible thing I think you can say. Think about it! You had better darn well think about it. You shoot a drunk guy who walks into the wrong house, and you're done for - almost regardless of jurisdiction. Even in a clean shoot, you darn well better have thought about it or you'll lose your @$$ against ANY motivated DA or 1st year civil attourney.
I'm sure you did not mean it to sound like that.

Oh I meant every word of it and I have thought about it. Thought hard about it! I don't need a lecture from you or anyone else regarding my family. If someone forces their way into my house, then it's my right as a home owner to defend my family and my property especially since I've got warning stickers on every place of entry. I'm well aware of the laws in my state and I have every right to defend my family against an intruder in MY home.

As a matter of fact, a few months ago, a guy came home in the middle of the afternoon and found two people robbing him. He shot both of them, killing one of the criminals. He wasn't even endicted in the incident and the other criminal who survived was charged and is awaiting trial.

Granted each situation is different, but anyone who's in my house without my permission other than family members and friends will be drawn on. This may sound like I'm just some gun waving lunatic, but I do train regularly, I am a veteran and I'm proficient in handling my 1911. In addition to my regular target practice, I'm well aware of what can and cannot happen, especially when it pertains to my domain.

 

[syciprider]

What the ???

H&K???

Real men shoot 1911s.

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[ElMon]

You are obviously in the "knowingly competent" category, and I second everything you say. As another H&K USP 45 owner, I also applaud your selection.

Some of what I've said above may possibly appear anti-gun, but believe me, I am not. However, I am a strong advocate of the position that people who don't learn how to use it properly, and the legal and moral ramifications should not own one.

And, of course you know, the 21' foot rule is a general rule. Of course motivated bad guys can do more damage, and less motivated bad guys couldn't cover 21' in a day. And, competent shooters can put two or three into center mass in less than 1.5 seconds. It is a generality that is somewhat universally accepted. It is a starting place - and if you do shoot someone and your are sued (which you will be), every single facet of that shooting will be reexamined with regards to the bad guy's motivation and your skills. It might not be pretty if you exceed these general rules.

That said, I repeat, I agree 1000% that explaining my fear to the police and a jury is better than the alternative.

My point in the whole thing is to be aware of what WILL happen to you in a CLEAN SHOOT. You will be at least sued, and that'll cost you probably around $20,000 give or take. But you'll be alive!

Anyhow, I think we're on the same side here, right?

Cheers!!

We're definitely on the same page here. I'm in the category of "god forbid I'll ever have to, but I'm ready just in case". Your right about being out some cash though, although I feel that in the bible belt, you'd have a better chance of gettin off scotch free as you would anywhere.

 

[ElMon]

What the ???

H&K???

Real men shoot 1911s.

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That's friggin hawt!!!!

 

[jrthebassguy]

I don't trust myself carrying a gun. It would just freak me out too much.




Now, a knife on the other hand....

 

[NamelessOne]

a katana... now that's classy self-defence.

of course, I'd need to learn how to use it.

just imagine the conversation:

"give me your wallet"
"nice toy knife. give me yours."
*punk guy's eyes get really big*

It's probably not practical at all, but if I ever used it, it would be one to tell the kids...

 

[syciprider]

I don't trust myself carrying a gun. It would just freak me out too much.




Now, a knife on the other hand....

Ugh, knives are nasty. I've seen a knife fight before. One loses but nobody wins.

 

[ImaStupidBaby]

About four years ago, when I lived in Lawrence, KS, someone broke into my house while I was at a gig. I got home and found that they had gained entrance through a side door in the garage. Whoever it was made off with my Nikon F4E + lenses and my Glock 29. I had just bought the Glock and it was in my night stand with two loaded clips. All my other guns were locked up elsewhere and thankfully the thieves never got that far. My camera rig was the real bummer because I'd sorta grown up with it and had developed my photographic skills with it.

The police never recovered my stuff but there will always be one thing that I'll never forget about that experience. I was glad that I didn't come home while they were there because I just might've gotten shot with my own gun! The whole thing was enough to get me to sell my other firearms and be happy that no one was hurt. The camera and the gun were just material possessions that, no matter how much sentimental value had been attached to them, didn't matter that much to me in the long run.

I ended up moving to NY shortly after the robbery and I since I had enough crap to move up there, including my double bass, drumset and stereo, I was glad to be rid of the firearms. Presently I live in an area of Brooklyn that can be pretty dangerous and I feel that there are enough guns around here without me adding to the list. Coming from a former concealed-carry license holder, I actually feel more safe now WITHOUT a gun than with one.

Let me guess, you lived in North Lawrence?

I lived in the student ghetto last semester with some friends. We had a party and my backpack was stolen (and someone also managed to drop a bottle of beer through my toilet). my doors were locked too. my backpack was recovered with everything in it. still pissed me off though.


You gotta love Lawrence though.

 

[Foamy]

Oh I meant every word of it and I have thought about it. Thought hard about it! I don't need a lecture from you or anyone else regarding my family. If someone forces their way into my house, then it's my right as a home owner to defend my family and my property especially since I've got warning stickers on every place of entry. I'm well aware of the laws in my state and I have every right to defend my family against an intruder in MY home.

As a matter of fact, a few months ago, a guy came home in the middle of the afternoon and found two people robbing him. He shot both of them, killing one of the criminals. He wasn't even endicted in the incident and the other criminal who survived was charged and is awaiting trial.

Granted each situation is different, but anyone who's in my house without my permission other than family members and friends will be drawn on. This may sound like I'm just some gun waving lunatic, but I do train regularly, I am a veteran and I'm proficient in handling my 1911. In addition to my regular target practice, I'm well aware of what can and cannot happen, especially when it pertains to my domain.

You are not making any sense.

Your exact statement was:
"If an intruder's in your house, you don't have to think before shooting."

That is irresponsible advice at best, and could lead to disastrous results if another reader actually follows this advice and kills an intruder. If you ahve already thought this through, and decided that you will kill an intruder, that is fine for you - it's your life, and your family. But do not advise others that they "don't have to think before shooting." That is bad advice at best.

Second, I did not lecture you, nor did I say anything about your family. I simply (well, verbosely, I suppose) said that you gave out irresponsible advice about shooting a gun.

I'm glad you are well trained, and from the bottom of my heart, THANK YOU for your service to this country!!!!

Personally, I agree that it is your right (obligation) to protect yourself and your family. I am a gun owner also well-trained, and if mr badguy took one step toward me or mine in my house, I would also shoot. But, I would at least be thinking about it. It would not be automatic. I would use my brain. If some drunk bum walked in, and did not pose a serious threat, I would not kill him - I might beat the snot out of him with a bat or something, but I wouldn't kill that person. But every man has his line to stand behind or cross - we should think about it.

I stand by my statement that you gave out bad advice, and if I touched you personally, I am sorry for that.

 

[jiant.]

There is now a sign on the door that reads "There is a pit bull loose in this house. Feel free to kick the door in again f***er. Less dog food I will have to buy."

My drummer and I laughed out loud when we saw this. Amazing.

 

[Poop-Loops]

Ugh, knives are nasty. I've seen a knife fight before. One loses but nobody wins.

I heard it said that the guy who goes to the hospital after a knife fight is the winner. The loser is in the morgue.

I'll defend my home until I die (and I do plan on buying a shotgun when I own my own house), but on the street or something, I'll just book it. It's really not worth it.

 

[Bard2dbone]

You are not making any sense.

Your exact statement was:
"If an intruder's in your house, you don't have to think before shooting."

That is irresponsible advice at best, and could lead to disastrous results if another reader actually follows this advice and kills an intruder. If you ahve already thought this through, and decided that you will kill an intruder, that is fine for you - it's your life, and your family. But do not advise others that they "don't have to think before shooting." That is bad advice at best.

Second, I did not lecture you, nor did I say anything about your family. I simply (well, verbosely, I suppose) said that you gave out irresponsible advice about shooting a gun.

I'm glad you are well trained, and from the bottom of my heart, THANK YOU for your service to this country!!!!

Personally, I agree that it is your right (obligation) to protect yourself and your family. I am a gun owner also well-trained, and if mr badguy took one step toward me or mine in my house, I would also shoot. But, I would at least be thinking about it. It would not be automatic. I would use my brain. If some drunk bum walked in, and did not pose a serious threat, I would not kill him - I might beat the snot out of him with a bat or something, but I wouldn't kill that person. But every man has his line to stand behind or cross - we should think about it.

I stand by my statement that you gave out bad advice, and if I touched you personally, I am sorry for that.

I'll go along with this.

I'd rather not have to shoot someone. I have more options than most along those lines. If it's just me at home, I'd probably try to take him down by hand first. But then again, I'm a 300 lb man who has had some training and way more experience than is absolutely necessary.

If my wife and/or daughter is home, I'm not going to even pause at that step. I'm going to get a good sight picture and then tell him to freeze.

Gun control laws only disarm the victims. I don't wish to be an unarmed victim.

But then again, North Texas has a pretty good tradition of letting people protect their homes. Last year a grandmother shot a guy who was hiding from police in her closet. And then she shot him again in the front yard trying to make him be still for the police to get there. My church took up an offering to help her pay for repairs to the closet he had hidden in. No, she was not charged. No, she's not a member of our church. People just approved of her actions.

I've got to figure that would have worked differently in California.

But here we can usually protect ourselves. The last time I got in a fight in public(fifteen or sixteen years ago) my girlfriend and I were atacked by a group of skinheads. Fortunately they were disorganized and kind of got in each others ways. I beat the living dogsnot out of all of them until my girlfriend managed to summon the police. One of the skinheads said he wanted to file assault charges on me because he was much more injured than I was. The officer looked at the five of them and the two of us and said "Okay. But first I have to let him kick your ass some more." That's how it's supposed to go.

 

[Brad Maestas]

Let me guess, you lived in North Lawrence?

I lived in the student ghetto last semester with some friends. We had a party and my backpack was stolen (and someone also managed to drop a bottle of beer through my toilet). my doors were locked too. my backpack was recovered with everything in it. still pissed me off though.


You gotta love Lawrence though.

Yes Larry-Town certainly is unique.

That's too bad about your stuff.
I lived around 10th & Iowa. Even though it was normally a nice neighborhood it was surprising how many incidents occurred on my block that year. I guess it had something to do with our proximity to Iowa Street and hence, the turnpike. Many of the folks that were getting arrested were from Topeka. They would vandalize and/or burglarize places and then try to make a hasty getaway on the turnpike just down the road. You're right. North Lawrence and parts of East Lawrence can be pretty shady!

 

[Spector_Ray]

You are not making any sense.

Your exact statement was:
"If an intruder's in your house, you don't have to think before shooting."

That is irresponsible advice at best, and could lead to disastrous results if another reader actually follows this advice and kills an intruder. If you ahve already thought this through, and decided that you will kill an intruder, that is fine for you - it's your life, and your family. But do not advise others that they "don't have to think before shooting." That is bad advice at best.

Second, I did not lecture you, nor did I say anything about your family. I simply (well, verbosely, I suppose) said that you gave out irresponsible advice about shooting a gun.

I'm glad you are well trained, and from the bottom of my heart, THANK YOU for your service to this country!!!!

Personally, I agree that it is your right (obligation) to protect yourself and your family. I am a gun owner also well-trained, and if mr badguy took one step toward me or mine in my house, I would also shoot. But, I would at least be thinking about it. It would not be automatic. I would use my brain. If some drunk bum walked in, and did not pose a serious threat, I would not kill him - I might beat the snot out of him with a bat or something, but I wouldn't kill that person. But every man has his line to stand behind or cross - we should think about it.

I stand by my statement that you gave out bad advice, and if I touched you personally, I am sorry for that.

You're absolutely correct and you have no need to apologize. I appreciate your concern and when it comes to my family, I'm highly protective. I should've clarified my statement to begin with because it's easy for me to think the way I do and when my mind's racing faster than I can type, it tends to get jumbled.

Safety is first and foremost when guns are involved and every situation is different. The scenario I had in my mind was that if a drunk burst into my home in the middle of the night, there's a lot of confusion. I wouldn't just blindly shoot at the guy. You must warn him and if that doesn't do it and he reacts in a way that I feel threatened, me and my family come first.

What I said in the beginning is true in the sense that a person who has no business in another's home had better think real hard as well. It just depends on the situation. Thanks again for the clarification!

 

[Foamy]

You're absolutely correct and you have no need to apologize. I appreciate your concern and when it comes to my family, I'm highly protective.

No worries at all. I think we are both in pretty much 100% agreement on all the issues we've discussed. Until the situation unfolds, we never quite know how we will handle it, but with forethought and wisdom, we will handle the situation the best we can to guarantee that not a hair on our family is harmed. And as I think we all agree, it is far better to explain yourself in front of a jury than to be carried in a box by our friends! Regardless of how any legal stuff turns out, we will live, and the badguy will not!

I just try to be sure that we all have all the knowledge we can to help us each prepare for the unthinkable.

Anyhow, thanks again for your service. I truly appreciate you and the armed forces and I understand the sacrifice they all make each day to keep us safe!

 

[ImaStupidBaby]

Yes Larry-Town certainly is unique.

That's too bad about your stuff.
I lived around 10th & Iowa. Even though it was normally a nice neighborhood it was surprising how many incidents occurred on my block that year. I guess it had something to do with our proximity to Iowa Street and hence, the turnpike. Many of the folks that were getting arrested were from Topeka. They would vandalize and/or burglarize places and then try to make a hasty getaway on the turnpike just down the road. You're right. North Lawrence and parts of East Lawrence can be pretty shady!

I don't know when you moved out, but there was a murder here a few years back. It was at Jefferson Commons apartments (31st and Iowa), and both the killer and the victim were both from Topeka. It surprises me how little violent crime there is in Lawrence, and how a lot of it is from people who live in Topeka.

I would have expected that 10th and Iowa would be pretty safe, and a pretty low crime area, since a lot of those houses near there have pretty high property values.