Avatar 3 way 15/6/tweet

[::::BASSIST::::]

4 ohm 3015LF... drool.

For a brief moment, I thought of buying the cab just for the driver and swapping its 4 ohm driver for my LDS 15/6 8 ohm driver. Then selling the Avatar 15/6 with the 8 ohm driver installed. Crazy? Perhaps...

 

[rpsands]

4 ohm 3015LF... drool.

For a brief moment, I thought of buying the cab just for the driver and swapping its 4 ohm driver for my LDS 15/6 8 ohm driver. Then selling the Avatar 15/6 with the 8 ohm driver installed. Crazy? Perhaps...

A 4 ohm crossover would not be compatible with an 8 ohm 3015LF, so this would be pretty sleazy unless you replaced the crossover with yours too.

In that case, it'd probably be OK.

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

Meh... Sort of just dreaming on that one. That would be a lot of hassle just to obtain the 4 ohm driver.

However, thanks for pointing out that crossover business. I hadn't thought of that.

 

[Sundogue]

With an 800 RB you could bypass the internal crossover and use the 800 rb's built in crossover too (would need to figure out how to use just the horn's xover, or just remove it). That'd be a pretty badass setup with the 4 ohm woofer, I bet.

Yeah, I thought about that very thing, because I have a Carvin BX1200 (completely bi-ampable on it's own) so I would probably gut the thing and build a new box out of 1/2" ply.

The thought of having a single 4 ohm fEarful is very appealing. The only thing holding me back from building a fEarful at the present time is the 8 ohm 3015LF. Perhaps it makes no sense to some, but I would prefer a single cab solution and a 4 ohm 3015LF is exactly what I keep desiring.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Five pages of random conjecture

It's not like there's any lack of experience here with respect to a 3-way loaded with the 3015LF, a six and a tweeter. I haven't seen anything that I'd call bashing, unless you consider stating facts 'bashing'. It's pretty much agreed that for the money it's a good cab, well worth considering if you can't afford and/or are unwilling to wait for an LDS and can't build a fEarful.

 

[Sundogue]

Five pages of random conjecture, accolades, and bashing.
When is someone actually going to buy one and tell us how it sounds?

You apparently aren't aware that some of those you feel are bashing or using conjecture, actually already know (or at least have a VERY good idea) what its going to sound like just on specs alone.

It already has enough things about it to like, but some things I'd definitely change even if I bought one. For me, like losing the tweeter and using 1/2" ply for the cab (and redesigning it a tad) just to name two things that are neither conjecture or bashing on my part, but are educated desires actually.

 

[lbwdog]

Yeah, I thought about that very thing, because I have a Carvin BX1200 (completely bi-ampable on it's own) so I would probably gut the thing and build a new box out of 1/2" ply.

The thought of having a single 4 ohm fEarful is very appealing. The only thing holding me back from building a fEarful at the present time is the 8 ohm 3015LF. Perhaps it makes no sense to some, but I would prefer a single cab solution and a 4 ohm 3015LF is exactly what I keep desiring.

Sundogue; Sounds like a lot of work and expense to get a 4 Ohm 3015LF. And with your experience and knowledge, I'm surprised you buy into the 4 Ohm over 8 Ohm theory. I'd think the Carvin 1200 would provide plenty of power into an 8 Ohm 15/6 unless you're playin' crazy loud.
But.....that's just my thinking on it....

 

[BurningSkies]

It's not like there's any lack of experience here with respect to a 3-way loaded with the 3015LF, a six and a tweeter. I haven't seen anything that I'd call bashing, unless you consider stating facts 'bashing'. It's pretty much agreed that for the money it's a good cab, well worth considering if you can't afford and/or are unwilling to wait for an LDS and can't build a fEarful.

[FONT=&quot]I agree with this assessment. If we take into consideration the niche that Avatar fills in the gear market, it’s right where they make their money. They make no-frills, solid quality budget gear. That ‘budget’ side of things means that they make compromises (otherwise it would be a ‘high end’ thing, wouldn’t it?), and hopefully they make the trade offs in places where they negatively affect the sound only minimally. Will it have the same features and sound as a fEarful? No, but if it hits 75% of that performance sound quality, you’re STILL bettering most, if not all of the regular 115 cabs out there. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I think that Dave has worked to fit the modern 2 or 3 way cab design paradigm into the parameters of his production model. I hazard to guess that many people will be very pleased with this cabinet and what it brings. While most of the ‘big box cab producers’ have ignored what’s going on with this kind of model, I think Avatar should get some credit for dipping its toes into the water.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The first step forward was using a 3015LF, the next was picking a passably decent mid, and of course paying attention to the crossover. Of course, none of us have heard it yet. I wonder if there are even production models for sale yet. It just hit the website last week. Will I buy one? Well…I have the absolute shiznit of fEarful rigs already, a 15/6+15/sub. Would I consider this if I needed a backup or a practice cab or something ‘in case of’? Yes. Would I recommend this to someone who’s heard mine and interested in something similar but doesn’t want to build or order? Probably, depending upon the shakeout once these have been played and we have some consensus about it.[/FONT]

 

[Chef]

It might be that Dave would sell a 4 ohm 3015LF, if someone were to ask nicely.

 

[Passinwind]

It might be that Dave would sell a 4 ohm 3015LF, if someone were to ask nicely.

Eminence does not allow OEM model driver sales like that any more.

 

[Sundogue]

Sundogue; Sounds like a lot of work and expense to get a 4 Ohm 3015LF. And with your experience and knowledge, I'm surprised you buy into the 4 Ohm over 8 Ohm theory. I'd think the Carvin 1200 would provide plenty of power into an 8 Ohm 15/6 unless you're playin' crazy loud.
But.....that's just my thinking on it....

But I use my BX1200 bi-amped (sans internal crossover). That leaves me with using only one side of it (400 watts into a 4 ohm load and only about 250 into an 8 ohm) into the 3015LF.

Granted the 250 might be enough for most situations, but I'd rather be covered for all situations with a single cab solution, given the 3015LF can handle more power.

Now I could go to the trouble of using the existing crossover and bridge my Carvin into the 8 ohm cab.

Otherwise, no I don't necessarily think 4 ohms is all that much better than 8 ohm. It depends on the situation. My head could handle two 4 ohm cabs (as it goes down to 2 ohms per side) so I've never been shy about my like for 4 ohm cabs. I like being able to use the variable crossover on the head as opposed to being stuck with a preset internal one. It's either going to the extra expense and time of building a fEarful with it's own carefully selected crossover or using Avatar's existing one, of which I don't know anything about really.

Using my own head's crossover allows me to set it where I want it.

 

[Bmorefoozler]

With an 800 RB you could bypass the internal crossover and use the 800 rb's built in crossover too (would need to figure out how to use just the horn's xover, or just remove it). That'd be a pretty badass setup with the 4 ohm woofer, I bet.

Is it completely safe to assume that the mid is 8 ohms, because the 800RB is pretty strict about that. I don't THINK that Dave had a 4 ohm mid made for him, but I suppose it's possible.

 

[greenboy]

There's no reason to make a 4-ohm mid driver for this. Absolutely would have been a waste of time and money.

* * *

And as I said in an earlier post, a lot of times 4-ohm woofer derivations are inferior to the 8-ohm versions, though Eminence seems to have a better handle on this than most, lately.

But say someone got one of these 4-ohm drivers to put into a fEarful. Then what? You don't know the T-S parameters, don't have graphs of frequency response or impedance, so have little to go on to do the crossover properly. Unless you've purchased or assembled a test/measurement suite and know how to use it.

Man, I thought people maybe learned a little from all the fEarful and Boutique On A Budget threads. Now I begin to wonder.

 

[Bmorefoozler]

There's no reason to make a 4-ohm mid driver for this. Absolutely would have been a waste of time and money.

* * *
.

I didn't think so, but I didn't want someone to go blow their high amp in their 800RB without checking first.

 

[greenboy]

If we take into consideration the niche that Avatar fills in the gear market, it’s right where they make their money. They make no-frills, solid quality budget gear. That ‘budget’ side of things means that they make compromises (otherwise it would be a ‘high end’ thing, wouldn’t it?), and hopefully they make the trade offs in places where they negatively affect the sound only minimally.

If I could change only one thing, it would be to get the HF section right next to the dedicated midrange. That wouldn't have cost a cent (discounting the time it takes to know things like that, or the smarts to imitate those who grok it).

But one could just turn the HF section down, and that's no longer an issue... A bit of a shame though, because that particular tweeterhorn sounds much better (ON-AXIS ANYWAY) when there's a dedicated midrange driver next to it, filling the response gap than it does when it's just grafted on to a one-way design the way practically every bass cab in the market does it.

But I agree with you in general, BurningSkies. If someone doesn't build their own box, this is a pretty good value, and some or many people may even prefer it to most Accugroove models if they are able to put brand associations aside.

 

[rpsands]

But say someone got one of these 4-ohm drivers to put into a fEarful. Then what? You don't know the T-S parameters, don't have graphs of frequency response or impedance, so have little to go on to do the crossover properly. Unless you've purchased or assembled a test/measurement suit and know how to use it.

Man, I thought people maybe learned a little from all the fEarful and Boutique On A Budget threads. Now I begin to wonder.

I did make the caveat that "if the woofer turns out to be a good 4 ohm conversion" or something along those lines but I should have been more specific.

Since Dave's already using a generic crossover (which should probably be replaced when going to a 6nd410 instead of a cbmr mid) and your crossover would have to be redesigned just to go to 4 ohms (Much less to match the impedance curve and response of the new woofer), I don't think anyone would assume it is a "drop in" unless you are biamping.

At least I hope not

 

[SteveC]

[FONT=&quot]While most of the ‘big box cab producers’ have ignored what’s going on with this kind of model, I think Avatar should get some credit for dipping its toes into the water.[/FONT]

Genz Benz has a new 3 way out as well. It's a 12/8/8/tweet.

Link Removed

Not as budget as Avatar, but looks like an interesting option.

 

[greenboy]

Since Dave's already using a generic crossover ---

Do we know that? It's an educated guess, though ; }

Anyway. It's probably not going to be any worse than some of the butchery LDS has perpetrated, with whimpy-for-the-task 800 Hz or 1200 Hz Em crossovers that are textbook and not even driver-specific, or using these 1200 Hz Seleniums - [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

That's one thing that's wrong with the "custom building" business model: there's no way you can justify doing research into suitable tailor-made crossover design. You can scarf up generics or what someone else has provided, but if you don't have a clue about this stuff, it's often easier to make bad recommendations rather than working at doing it right.

So there too, is a potential advantage for Avatar, though at this point it's unknown whether Avatar did anything special.

 

[BurningSkies]

If I could change only one thing, it would be to get the HF section right next to the dedicated midrange. That wouldn't have cost a cent (discounting the time it takes to know things like that, or the smarts to imitate those who grok it).

But one could just turn the HF section down, and that's no longer an issue... A bit of a shame though, because that particular tweeterhorn sounds much better (ON-AXIS ANYWAY) when there's a dedicated midrange driver next to it, filling the response gap than it does when it's just grafted on to a one-way design the way practically every bass cab in the market does it.

But I agree with you in general, BurningSkies. If someone doesn't build their own box, this is a pretty good value, and some or many people may even prefer it to most Accugroove models if they are able to put brand associations aside.

[FONT=&quot]Its easy for people to start tearing things apart (not that you’re doing that), because when it comes to the “new-wave-of-modern-full-range-cabinet-design” we’re used to talking about no compromises. ; ) So it helps to put this in perspective of what Avatar is really about in the marketplace. In relation to the tweeter placement, I would consider it a work in progress. I think Avatar being a small company could make a ‘revision’ fairly easily and quickly if they feel like doing it.[/FONT]

I did make the caveat that "if the woofer turns out to be a good 4 ohm conversion" or something along those lines but I should have been more specific.

Since Dave's already using a generic crossover (which should probably be replaced when going to a 6nd410 instead of a cbmr mid) and your crossover would have to be redesigned just to go to 4 ohms (Much less to match the impedance curve and response of the new woofer), I don't think anyone would assume it is a "drop in" unless you are biamping.

At least I hope not

[FONT=&quot]Are we sure that Dave is using a generic crossover? I only ask this, because the copy on the site says that the longest part of his process was the crossover development as well as his work with Eminence to get the crossover right. It sounds to me like it might not be off the shelf but something cooked up for the cab. It’s sort of loose conjecture at this point. IIRC, in the past, at one point Dave caught on to the fact that people didn’t like what he was using for a crossover in his regular cabs and upgraded his components. I would think that if people don’t like what ends up in these cabs, he’d do the same again, or have an upgrade/up charge for a different one. [/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]Also, in compliance with the CUP, similar to letting a vampire into the house, I think for Dave to comment we have to ‘invite him in’ with direct questioning. So…[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dave: Would you be able to clarify any of the spec on the crossover as well as any other information about the 4ohm Eminence driver, the mid driver, or to open the barndoor, any cab details that to date haven’t been posted? [/FONT]

 

[greenboy]

[FONT=&quot]In relation to the tweeter placement, I would consider it a work in progress. I think Avatar being a small company could make a ‘revision’ fairly easily and quickly if they feel like doing it.

I hope they do revisit this. I'd like to see people getting even more bang for the buck.

Are we sure that Dave is using a generic crossover? I only ask this, because the copy on the site says that the longest part of his process was the crossover development as well as his work with Eminence to get the crossover right.

There are a few other things in the ad copy that sound like marketing speak, so I wouldn't place too much on anything that's said there. I'd be pretty neutral about what it really means.

But I have trouble believing at least a little time wasn't put into the crossover, because if one version of it has to address a 4-ohm woofer nothing off the shelf is going to be remotely appropriate.

...On the other hand, one could just be using a genric non-driver-specific crossover calculator to do this, which is pretty far from what a good crossover actually needs to be in a ported-woofer cab that's crossing in a range that the bass really has a lot of content in.