Baer Amplification Megathread!

[KJung]

Fun thread again. I really enjoy these types of discussions (even in the middle of the night!).

Next up in a while... one of AlexClaber's 'Barefaced' executions (some sort of 112). Probably will be a while on that, given shipping issues, etc.

 

[JimmyM]

I guess the only other point I would make is reiterating the point I made in response to RPSANDS.

The reason that most of my clips sound relatively similar is not 'by chance'. It is rather a result of a lot of pre screening of gear to find the combinations that optimally result in producing 'my tone' (which may or may not be liked by various players, of course). There is a TON of gear I try that does not make the cut, and I tend not to post clips of those combinations (although I do try to post about the good and the bad on various threads, based on 'IMO').

I'd like to hear you through a bass or amp rig you don't like...I'd bet dollars to donuts that you'd still find a way to make it sound like you. Hmmm...what would be the Antiken rig? My Radio Shack violin bass with flats into a B-15? I';d like to hear you on a rig like that...I'd still bet it sounds like you

 

[KJung]

I'd like to hear you through a bass or amp rig you don't like...I'd bet dollars to donuts that you'd still find a way to make it sound like you. Hmmm...what would be the Antiken rig? My Radio Shack violin bass with flats into a B-15? I';d like to hear you on a rig like that...I'd still bet it sounds like you

That would be a good example Seriously, though, a good example from my clips is when I did the Bergantino HT112ER review clip. I recorded various heads with that cab, and the RH450/HT112ER combination sounded dull and lifeless. I like both of those pieces of gear quite a bit, but together... yuck to my ears, regardless of EQ. Another example would be the super big, smooth and wide sounding Bergantino AE212 with the Streamliner and a J bass.... just no punch or definition, no matter what I do with the knobs.

Again, some gear will just translate a player's tone much better than others. If that wasn't the case, we could all play out of the same stuff! And, maybe we could, but it wouldn't make us as happy on stage, and we would all play a bit differently as a result, mostly for the worse IMO.

Edit: To your point though, just like you, I've done a ton of 'backline supplied' gigs with old Hartke 410's and GK800's, or SWR Workingman rigs, and made it through just fine. However, if I had to play those rigs every day, I would not be as happy as I currently am!

 

[4-string]

Fun thread again. I really enjoy these types of discussions (even in the middle of the night!).

Next up in a while... one of AlexClaber's 'Barefaced' executions (some sort of 112). Probably will be a while on that, given shipping issues, etc.

The Midget? If it is anything close to the quality of the Big Twin, it is a great cab.

 

[KJung]

The Midget? If it is anything close to the quality of the Big Twin, it is a great cab.

Not sure what Alex is sending. I would think the 'Midget T' would be the most 'apples to apples' with these other executions. I'm looking forward to it!

 

[alexclaber]

The Midget T is very small and barely over 20lbs, so it's more of a 1x10" competitor that plays as loud as a decent 2x10". The Big Baby or Big Baby T are much more similar to these other "Super 1x12s". However, to mix things up I thought I'd send a Super Twelve T, which is a fair bit larger (AE212 size) but hardly any heavier and goes stupid loud (still waiting for a customer to find a gig that's too loud for it!) It'll need a home to go to after visiting a selection of reviewers...

This helps with the relative dimensions - all the badges are the same size: Barefaced Bass - Product Range

 

[4-string]

Cool. I look forward to hearing Ken's take on the Super Twelve T.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Both the TC and the Baer can take significantly more power than a 2x10 as well. Even a high end 2x10 will average around half as much displacement and very similar overall sensitivity, and similar thermal limits.

I appreciate everyone's comments, very interesting thread. I'm not sure what you mean by "can take more power" I've had the opportunity to play my nl210 along side a thunder child and the TC wasn't able to go as loud. That was very apparent and clear cut.

The Baer seems to be a bigger louder box then the TC is that the case?

 

[KJung]

I appreciate everyone's comments, very interesting thread. I'm not sure what you mean by "can take more power" I've had the opportunity to play my nl210 along side a thunder child and the TC wasn't able to go as loud. That was very apparent and clear cut.

The Baer seems to be a bigger louder box then the TC is that the case?

The NL210 is a nice box, and assuming you have the model I had, it is VERY goosed in the upper midrange (I liked that actually), and tight down low. Given the much more even voicing of the Thunderchild, versus the NL210, just like the AE210, which is similar but not as extreme in that midrange voicing, the impression is that it will be a bit louder in a solo setting when not pushed to its absolute limits. However, for the ability to handle strong peaks like slapping and digging in, and in the ability to push some real low end, even given its very small size, the Thunderchild is quite amazing, and will outperform most 210's across a wide range of frequencies.

The Baer cab is more efficient, since its performance at 8ohms is quite similar to the Thunderchild at 4ohms. The low end is about the same, as is the maximum volume, but the nature of the midrange response from 500hz up is quite different, and will appeal to different players.

That being said, while the reliability issues I had moved me away from the NL210 (which I assume have been taken care of in the updated model.. haven't really heard many reports on that model), it is one of the best sounding 210's I've owned, and will give the amazing Bergantino AE210 a run for its money if you like it 'tight and bright'.

Also, remember, there is no free lunch, and a cab like the Thunderchild (much less the Acme) takes more power than a typical 210 or 112 to get to full volume. If you tested your NL210 versus the Thunderchild with, for example, an EA Doubler or Micro, that head would not have the ability to push the Thunderchild to its full volume potential. And, with the master set at the same setting at moderate volumes, most cabs will seem louder than the Thunderchild. The difference happens when you have some real watts (i.e., around 500), and are really pushing the cab and digging in.

The beautiful thing about these full sounding, moderately efficient 12 loaded designs these days is that watts are cheap, and there are now some relatively high powered micro's that can push even the 8ohm versions to full performance.


Edit: Interestingly, the box that at one time defined this sort of 'super small box' thing was made by EA... the venerable VL110 three way cab. However, things have come a LONG way since then, and EA seemed to have changed their tonal vision from the original VL line, which IMO could hold a legitimate place in the history of bass cab development as the forerunner of a lot of this stuff 20+ years ago.

 

[KJung]

The Midget T is very small and barely over 20lbs, so it's more of a 1x10" competitor that plays as loud as a decent 2x10". The Big Baby or Big Baby T are much more similar to these other "Super 1x12s". However, to mix things up I thought I'd send a Super Twelve T, which is a fair bit larger (AE212 size) but hardly any heavier and goes stupid loud (still waiting for a customer to find a gig that's too loud for it!) It'll need a home to go to after visiting a selection of reviewers...

This helps with the relative dimensions - all the badges are the same size: Barefaced Bass - Product Range

Very cool! I look forward to checking it out if this happens.

 

[jnewmark]

There is definitely an interaction dynamic with certain gear for certain people. And gear can make it a lot easier to get that inspirational thing going. So the quest for gear is an honorable one in my eyes. But our guitarist and I are total gear swappers (we're not rich enough to be gear whores) and rarely do we show up to our gigs with the same gear as the previous gig. Yet he'll tell me that a guitar he's using for one song doesn't work as well as the other guitar he brought, and I nod and agree, but it all sounds the same to me. And vice versa.

I play with a guitar player in my corporate/wedding band that has so many guitars, I lost track in counting them. Everything from a Gibson Birdland to a Fender Tele. But , whatever one he brings gets played out of a Fender Super, and he always sounds the same to me, although he will rave about the tone of this guitar or that guitar. OTOH, I drag different heads and cabs to the gig and HE says I sound like me all the time! I tend to play Jazz basses all the time, so maybe that has something to do with it. My problem has always been being able to hear myself like I want, and have resorted to elevating my cabs to get closer to ear level. I don't know how you guys put those little 112 cabs on the floor next to the drummer and actually hear yourselves !

 

[kringle77]

I got to play through lomo's TC112 and it was the best tweeter loaded cab I have ever heard but, Im pretty sure that I would need 3 of them in alot of the places I play. I need to cover 90% of the volume from my amp. From my experience, two 12's are equivalent to three 10's. A 2x10 cab always has more output, at least the cabs I've used, including that TC. So, Im wondering how a pair of the ML112 cabs would compare to my NV610. Im sure that I would like the mids and highs even better. I've never heard a 12" loaded cab that had the same low mid punch as my favorite 10" loaded cabs. If this baer can do that, I'll buy one. Then, maybe two! Again, these are my favorite clips that Ken has done.

 

[KJung]

I got to play through lomo's TC112 and it was the best tweeter loaded cab I have ever heard but, Im pretty sure that I would need 3 of them in alot of the places I play. I need to cover 90% of the volume from my amp. From my experience, two 12's are equivalent to four 10's. A 2x10 cab always has more output, at least the cabs I've used, including that TC. So, Im wondering how a pair of the ML112 cabs would compare to my NV610. Im sure that I would like the mids and highs even better. I've never heard a 12" loaded cab that had the same low mid punch as my favorite 10" loaded cabs. If this baer can do that, I'll buy one. Then, maybe two! Again, these are my favorite clips that Ken has done.

+1 in that, again, a more typical mid voiced 210 cab will seem a bit louder than these 3012LF type cabs until you really get some watts into them. If you get them cranking, the low end will not only be more full (IMO and IME), but the cabs will handle peaks like slapping and digging in much better than a typical 210 (even a high end one like the Berg).

However, if you are talking pure volume, the NV610 with a good dose of watts will overtake virtually any 2 x 112 stack, although again, due in part to all the energy in the upper bass and midrange pumping out. Just depends what you want.

I've actually found that very few typical 2 x 112 stacks could keep up with my high quality 410's (similar to your experience... the AE212 is literally the first lightweight 212 I've ever found that can fully keep up with a high quality 410 and supply that 'bigger low end' that most associate with that sort of cab). I again find my Thunderchild to put out 'almost' the volume and low end of a 310 cab like my old Epi310UL. This results in it being 'almost' enough stand alone for a gig on which I would typically use a 410. Of course, it won't keep up with the 410 when really pushed, but cabs like these have been a more pleasant experience for me when playing loudly than virtually any 210.

Given the above, a stack made up of two ML112's would easily compete with virtually any 410, and produce more true low end than most. A high quality sealed 610... not so much if you are using pure volume in the midrange as the metric.

 

[KJung]

I play with a guitar player in my corporate/wedding band that has so many guitars, I lost track in counting them. Everything from a Gibson Birdland to a Fender Tele. But , whatever one he brings gets played out of a Fender Super, and he always sounds the same to me, although he will rave about the tone of this guitar or that guitar. OTOH, I drag different heads and cabs to the gig and HE says I sound like me all the time! I tend to play Jazz basses all the time, so maybe that has something to do with it. My problem has always been being able to hear myself like I want, and have resorted to elevating my cabs to get closer to ear level. I don't know how you guys put those little 112 cabs on the floor next to the drummer and actually hear yourselves !

I don't think I've ever had a problem hearing myself on stage. I know some do. I assume it is probably due to my more midrange present tone, which never is boomy. I stand right on top of the Thunderchild on many gigs (literally with my legs touching the front of the cab), and never, ever have any issue hearing.

However, I'm lucky enough to play with mostly professional freelance players who never (or at least for the most part) would play so loud as to 'unbalance the band' (i.e., play louder than a drummer hitting hard).

Zero issue for me. Interesting that some have this issue and some don't.

 

[kringle77]

Well, the type of music and crowd that you are playing to will vary. I've got to play with some great musicians but, if it's a loud, drunken rock gig, well, you need a hammer, not a feather. Good point about the midrange. So many players are stuck in the bedroom tone.

 

[KJung]

Just to be clear, I have not totally 'drank the kool aid' on these 12 cabs. My excitement is driven by my 30 year goal of finding the most portable rig that I can find, with the minimum amount of tonal compromise.

Cabs like Roger's and also the Thunderchild (and I assume Barefaced, etc.) have moved the bar on this specific goal for me, which is why I am excited.

The Acme Fullrange is a bit of a different beast, and amazing in a different way.... the ability of the low end to sound like a 4 x 15 rig, at decent, moderate volume, given some watts... that is 'super' in a different way... small, REALLY full and low, moderately loud.

In an absolute sense, my AE410 and AE212 sound much better at the highest volume I play, but the fact that the tiny little Thunderchild is even within a stone's throw of that performance makes me giddy to no end

 

[KJung]

Well, the type of music and crowd that you are playing to will vary. I've got to play with some great musicians but, if it's a loud, drunken rock gig, well, you need a hammer, not a feather. Good point about the midrange. So many players are stuck in the bedroom tone.

+1 Luckily, I rarely run into that any more. I'm sure there are gigs out there where my AE410/Streamliner would sound like a little wussy 110 rig. Everything is relative to context. Luckily, my definition of 'loud' is a band playing at volumes to appropriately balance with an unmic'd drummer playing relatively hard. Any more than that, we have front of house, and the same volume criterion is in place regarding stage volume.

 

[nutdog]

If it were all in the hands we'd all be playing a $99 Ibanez starter pack.

I don't play fly dates and have gear supplied. I have a limited amount of funds and I have to carry whatever I play to wherever I play it. This includes up and down stairs. I don't have roadies or soundmen. I'm not getting any younger.

I'm not really a gearhead. I played the same rig for many years until it quit. I'm just trying to simplify but still be able to play a gig without a PA, without buying a van, without breaking my back and without starving my children.

If some of you guys can EQ any sound you want out of any rig, more power to you. I guess I just live with my limitations. For me, some gear gives a sound that I like better than others. There is a huge difference between a shuttle 9 through an LDS 12/6 and a STL through an AE210. You may not be able to tell on youtube, but then again, I don't play youtube gigs.

I've played 4 gigs with my latest rig incarnation, 3 outdoors, 1 in a boomy auditorium, and each time the rest of the band has commented on how good it sounds. None of them have said "you sound just like you always do". In fact, the first gig I set it up and didn't say anything about it to the band. After the first set the guitar player said "Holy $#!+ that new setup you got sounds awesome!"

 

[Saluki]

Hey Roger. Another thing that I tried to demonstrate in the various clips, is how great a slap tone can be with the right mid driver and crossover. The top end tone of your cab is the first 'mid driver loaded/no tweeter' cab that I would consider owning myself.

I would describe the top end of your cab (and I think this comes across in my clips) as 'bright with very little gank'. In other words, a nice upper mid response that isn't harsh, and enough extension into the treble region to provide the sparkle needed for my definition of a good slap tone.

The fact that overdriven tones also seem to sound great through your cab is quite an accomplishment IMO.

This description reminds me of my time spent with a few of the accugroove cabs. Really polite up top without any gank. Sounded great at home, but they didn't do it for me in the mix. If these are similiar to the AE112 with a little less gank, I may be in trouble. AE112s are my go to right now. Ken just send me the cab when you are done and I'll compare it with my AE112s and then send it back to Roger.

 

[KJung]

This description reminds me of my time spent with a few of the accugroove cabs. Really polite up top without any gank. Sounded great at home, but they didn't do it for me in the mix. If these are similiar to the AE112 with a little less gank, I may be in trouble. AE112s are my go to right now. Ken just send me the cab when you are done and I'll compare it with my AE112s and then send it back to Roger.

The top end of the Baer cab is absolutely NOTHING like the top end of the Accugroove cabs. As you can hear from my clips, there is NOTHING polite about the top end of the Baer cab. Yes, it doesn't ever sound nasal or ganky (i.e., having a peak at 1K or so), but it is 'in your face' if you want it to be. These powerful 6" mid drivers have NOTHING in common with those little mid drivers used in the Accugroove cabs.

These cabs would be similar to the top end of the AE112's, but combined with a MUCH more forceful low end, and a significantly higher maximum volume output. That being said, if 2 x AE112 are covering your volume, and you dig the tone, there would be no reason to move from them... great sounding stack. If you feel buried sometime, 2 x ML112 would give you similar aggression up top, but more absolute volume and low end, of course, at the cost of a bigger box and a bit more weight. Where the Baer would really pull ahead is if you could get significant watts into a single cab, where the Baer would stomp all over a single AE112 IMO.