Bergantino AE212 - Just Released

[BartmanPDX]

Per TB rules, "flat", "transparent", and "uncolored" are the equivalent to the term "like".

Brilliant!

 

[rodl2005]

+1

I should point out that there are enough times that I do have to stand pretty close to my rig that I have to plan accordingly. That may not be the general case.

Same here!

At most our gigs I'm fine & can stand virtually where I want- 3 or so yards from my rig is great.

BUT---- at our regular club gig(that we've had for 10+ yrs now) I have to stand right in front of my rig... & it's in a corner , so BASS/a BOOM BOOM BOOMY galore...

HAVE to have the DI sent to FOH PA on post EQ-or go outta my Sansamp or another DI pre amplifier, coz onstage I have to cut most bass controls to 9 oclock at least.

HAVE to sit the rig on a crate so it's up near my ears or else have it REALLY loud & annoy all else in 8-piece band - OR have it angled up at my head.
AMAZING how much better it sounds being abl;e to be a few yards away eh??

 

[tombowlus]

To me, that means Jim B likes the sound best with the attenuator non-attenuated.

I think Jim considers the "flat" setting to be with the attenuator set at "noon" (which is still somewhat attenuated, compared to wide open).

 

[KJung]

I think Jim considers the "flat" setting to be with the attenuator set at "noon" (which is still somewhat attenuated, compared to wide open).

It also depends on the particular Berg cab. Some of the older HT's did actually sound quite even with the tweeter run up pretty hot. With the current cabs (HT112ER, AE line and HS line), I too find the attenuator set at noon being roughly 'flat'...meaning that the volume of the upper treble is about the same as the volume of the upper mids coming out of the top of the driver.

 

[bassjam]

It also depends on the particular Berg cab. Some of the older HT's did actually sound quite even with the tweeter run up pretty hot. With the current cabs (HT112ER, AE line and HS line), I too find the attenuator set at noon being roughly 'flat'...meaning that the volume of the upper treble is about the same as the volume of the upper mids coming out of the top of the driver.

This is interesting to me.I've been using an HS410 and I've dialed back the tweeter to between 9 and 10clock.It seemed to be really strong set at noon, and I like sharp soundin tweeters.I was using an Aggie DB751 and I'm back to using my trusty LMII now.

 

[KJung]

This is interesting to me.I've been using an HS410 and I've dialed back the tweeter to between 9 and 10clock.It seemed to be really strong set at noon, and I like sharp soundin tweeters.I was using an Aggie DB751 and I'm back to using my trusty LMII now.

I think part of this has to do with the driver design and voicing. The drivers in the HS cabs (which happen to be ceramic) have a bit smoother response up top, and also don't seem to extend nearly as high in frequency as the AE neo drivers. Hence, there is that bit of space (to my ear) between the top of the driver and the start of the tweeter (and/or, the tweeter is crossed over a bit lower to 'plug that hole'). This kind of sets the tweeter out there 'hanging above the sound of the cab' a bit more than the very seemless voicing of the brighter AE drivers.

That's a long winded way of saying that a tweeter that is voiced to sit out there kind of 'on its own' tends to 'sound louder' to my ear since the top of the driver doesn't interfere with it. When I had my HS210, and also with my experience with the Epifani UL's (both of which are examples to my ear of the above described voicing) they really sound like '2 way cabs with tweeters'. The AE line has the upper treble of the tweeter response much more integrated into the top end of the entire cab response to my ear.

This isn't a 'better or worse' thing, but is a different approach to voicing a cab IMO. The good news is, with the attenuator, you can set it to where it sounds good to you, and the position of the knob really doesn't matter much.

 

[tombowlus]

The good news is, with the attenuator, you can set it to where it sounds good to you, and the position of the knob really doesn't matter much.

+1 I will add that from my discussions with Jim, whenever possible, he tries to choose components for each enclosure design such that the "noon" setting on the tweeter is as close as possible to the optimal setting for that design goal.

He figures a lot of players will just set it there and forget it. But I definitely support the notion of tweaking tweeters to taste (say that ten times fast! ).

Tom.

 

[musicpbass]

Hey Tom -

How do you feel the AE212 compares to the PN410 HLF?

Apples to Oranges? Or two cabinets w/ similar capabilities?

 

[tombowlus]

Hey Tom -

How do you feel the AE212 compares to the PN410 HLF?

Apples to Oranges? Or two cabinets w/ similar capabilities?

I have not played through an AE212 yet (though I do own two AE112's), and I'm going to have to roll with the Apples to Oranges option. A couple of quick thoughts, though, are that the AE212 is going to be brighter & more clear, as well as probably a little deeper than the Pro Neo. The PN410HLF does well at being fairly dry/tight, but still full with a hint of warmth.

But they are two fairly different-sounding cabs.

 

[rodneyat]

I have not played through an AE212 yet (though I do own two AE112's), and I'm going to have to roll with the Apples to Oranges option. A couple of quick thoughts, though, are that the AE212 is going to be brighter & more clear, as well as probably a little deeper than the Pro Neo. The PN410HLF does well at being fairly dry/tight, but still full with a hint of warmth.

But they are two fairly different-sounding cabs.

I'll jump in before Ken does. Like Tom said...2 AE112s do not sound like an AE212. Quite a bit different actually. Jim and I had a discussion about that very thing. He obviously will not say what is really "different". Other than he designed them to sound different...and they do. I do like taking one of my AE112 cabs and stacking it with the 212. It's a nice change in flavor.

All of that said. The 2 ae112s don't have the low end extension of the 212. But is a little more crisp up top. That's the short answer. At least as much as my fingers can type on an iPhone.

 

[tombowlus]

I'll jump in before Ken does. Like Tom said...2 AE112s do not sound like an AE212. Quite a bit different actually. Jim and I had a discussion about that very thing. He obviously will not say what is really "different". Other than he designed them to sound different...and they do. I do like taking one of my AE112 cabs and stacking it with the 212. It's a nice change in flavor.

All of that said. The 2 ae112s don't have the low end extension of the 212. But is a little more crisp up top. That's the short answer. At least as much as my fingers can type on an iPhone.

I'm not arguing with any of that. In fact, that's kind of the reason for my caveat.

That being said, I still think that comparing the AE212 to the PN410HLF is an apples to oranges comparison.

 

[rodneyat]

I'm not arguing with any of that. In fact, that's kind of the reason for my caveat.

That being said, I still think that comparing the AE212 to the PN410HLF is an apples to oranges comparison.

Nope, not thinking you were arguing at all. We are agreeing. Thus the reason I said at the top of my post "Like Tom said...".

 

[tombowlus]

Nope, not thinking you were arguing at all. We are agreeing. Thus the reason I said at the top of my post "Like Tom said...".

Gotcha!

 

[rodneyat]

Gotcha!

It's all good Tom. I'm just giving you a hard time. Lol

 

[musicpbass]

For the money, the AE212 is actually cheaper than the PN410..... crazy

Thanks for your input Fellas!

 

[FlyLow]

Regarding the attenuator control, does it really only cut? I'm sure that is the case, but the markings are a little misleading.

The knob on my AE212's are labeled "Tweeter Control", and the zero setting is at high noon. The clockwise markings indicate "+1 db" through "+6 db", and counterclockwise is the opposite, "-1 db" through "-6 db". What is really happening when I turn the knobs?

 

[John D Harris]

Regarding the attenuator control, does it really only cut? I'm sure that is the case, but the markings are a little misleading.

The knob on my AE212's are labeled "Tweeter Control", and the zero setting is at high noon. The clockwise markings indicate "+1 db" through "+6 db", and counterclockwise is the opposite, "-1 db" through "-6 db". What is really happening when I turn the knobs?

I'm afraid that I mis-worded my original question.
Attenuators always only attenuate -- it is a passive device.
The designer can choose the drivers and crossover components such that the unattenuated signal of the HF driver is a certain number of dB above a flat frequency response at some region in its response curve, then use the attenuator to adjust it down from there.
That is my non-engineering concept of what goes on anyway.
All engineers (or more generally knowledgeable) in the audience feel free to correct or expound.

Some cab designers choose the max setting of the attenuator to be flat and only allow cut from there -- I think my original question was regarding whether this is the case with the AE crossovers.
From tomb's response it is not.

 

[bevan lurrito]

Only 1/2" more shallow than the AE410, so I didn't bother. For all practical purposes, they are about the same depth.

OK... off to pound on it

I'm sorry, did you post that you were off to pound a sweet box?

 

[Jerry J]

I'm afraid that I mis-worded my original question.
Attenuators always only attenuate -- it is a passive device.
The designer can choose the drivers and crossover components such that the unattenuated signal of the HF driver is a certain number of dB above a flat frequency response at some region in its response curve, then use the attenuator to adjust it down from there.
That is my non-engineering concept of what goes on anyway.
All engineers (or more generally knowledgeable) in the audience feel free to correct or expound.

Some cab designers choose the max setting of the attenuator to be flat and only allow cut from there -- I think my original question was regarding whether this is the case with the AE crossovers.
From tomb's response it is not.

My Stingray has center detented EQ. I take that to mean that the highs/lows are cut or boosted. In this case it is simply a high pass or low pass passive circuit.

 

[KJung]

My Stingray has center detented EQ. I take that to mean that the highs/lows are cut or boosted. In this case it is simply a high pass or low pass passive circuit.

Not sure if I'm following this discussion correctly, but an attenuator can only cut. However, the confusion (I think) is due to the fact that most tweeters have MUCH higher SPL than their associated drivers. Hence, the 'flat' setting (not really flat, but matching the SPL of the driver to the tweeter) involves padding down the output of the tweeter. Most tweeter circuits (Epi, Berg, etc.) set the attenuator and internal 'pad' so that the output of the tweeter and driver are roughly the same at the noon setting, but that's not always the case.

So, in some ways, you can actually think of the attenuator as 'cut and boost', in that as you 'attenuate less' the tweeter actually becomes significanly louder than the driver within its frequency response, giving the impression of a boost.

Anyway, the key is, use your ears, and don't just blindly set the tweeter at noon. With some instruments and/or heads with either attenuated or goosed upper treble, you might have to cut or 'boost' the attenuator off of the noon setting significantly to result in a relatively 'flat/neutral' response from you entire system/signal chain.