Big Amps will come back one day!!!

[amper]

I would like to buy, if I can, before I die, one more new bass rig and one more new guitar rig, just to have had them, but the truth is that I am planning for a future of ampless gigs, and will not miss hauling that heavy, bulky gear. If I eventually do get around to buying new stage rigs, they will probably never leave my home or rehearsal space, unless I move house.

I think that what many people are missing is that it's not impossible to get great sound out of ampless pedalboards running into PA equipment, but what you need to have to get great sound that way is a completely different mindset, just a completely different way of thinking about what a live performance "ought" to sound like.

There are plenty of situations in which using live amps is appropriate, and that's not going to change, because the nature of the physics of sound in space isn't going to change. Whenever there is a fundamental shift in technology and how we use it, there are always going to be those people who do not, cannot, will not, refuse to, or fail to make the transition, for whatever reason, and they don't necessarily *need* to, either.

But I, for one, am perfectly fine with putting the onus on the venue to provide appropriate audio reinforcement. In my experience, in my career as a musician, it has always been the venues who make the majority of the money, primarily because historically, they have been able to offload most of the responsibilities they ought to be shouldering onto individual musicians. Why should a venue operator invest in a good sound system, if by not doing so, they can force the thousands of musicians who play at their venue to compensate by investing *their* money in good sound?

 

[FugaziBomb]

So can you run those 2 humongous Peavey cabs with both of the Hartke 410s? Or run 2 amps so you can?

The biggest rig I've assembled out of this is the two Hartke 410s each getting fed 50w of tube power while each of the 18s were getting 450w from the Crown.

The sound coming out of the hartkes could peel the paint off the walls, but the two 18s can literally blow out windows if I'm not careful. I only did that set up once, and only just to be an ahole. It's really not usable in any venue. Even when I was playing large stages and outdoor fests, the biggest we ever used was a mic'd 210 and the 18s just to make the stage move.

Theoretically, though - I could chain the the Peavey and Eden 210s into one side of the Mesa, chain the Hartkes to the other side and run them all, but why? Even with just the 210 using one side of the Mesa, I still can't crank it up as loud as I want to to really get the character out of the 6l6s. I wish I would have gone with the 20 watt Mesa instead, but I was worried I'd be left wanting (ha!).

 

[/\/\3phist0]

While I think there are some nostalgic similarities between the old bass gear and older cars, there is one huge difference that is hard to argue about. The new bass gear is a lot more power grid friendly and universally usable to replace older technology amps than electric cars are at replacing internal combustion engine vehicles.

If we all went to electric vehicles tomorrow, I'm not sure where the electricity would come from to charge them with our current infrastructure and grid capacity. Maybe we turn off our refrigerators, HVAC systems and/or let clothes air dry while we are charging our cars. IMO the problem is not an insignificant one with an obvious easy solution.

It's also worth noting that (last time I checked) roughly 60% of US electrical power was generated by fossil fuels. I'm not against electric vehicles, I am simply an engineer who likes to ask a few questions about how we actually make something work before rushing off to do it.

Could not agree with this more. I drive a 2006 beast that gets 19MPG on a good day. Changed jobs recently to work from home so I’m putting very few miles on the road now.

I have what I have because financially, and practically the Magnum wagon was cheap and had the room to haul a full digital mixer, neo class D neo loaded PA and my small class D rig and LED lights. Can also putt the family and friends around. Could not afford a commuter car as a second single purpose vehicle.

I will be getting an EV that will serve that same purpose in short order.

The power infrastructure cannot support the needs of California when the Reg’s enforce the new vehicles to be EV here, there are not enough charging stations to serve the commuters needs either.

the power I get at my residence thankfully is wind / water generated and was a consideration when I chose this home.

surrounded by a cattle ranch 100s of square miles, I’m also reminded that the beasts on the hoof, consume a sizable amount of C02 absorbing plant life and put it back into the air along with other by product noxious gasses and “pollutants”.

the answers are not simple if we keep the lifestyle we have. EVs simply centralize the fuel consumption. Not shopping and getting all necessary sundries delivered, again only centralizes the fuel consumed.

Living in a large city is not an answer either. Too few have the transport infrastructure that is safe, efficient, and cost effective to provide the mobility that we are accustomed to.

Big amps may only come back as a fashion statement, as they are not practical efficient or sustainable.
Fashion is seldom practical.

live music is becoming niche the way that Theatre, movies, radio, wired land lines, letter writing, printed documentation, face to face business meetings, the list is endless.

progress is inevitable, but slow, often painful and welcomed by only a few initially. We are creatures of habit, and glutenous consumers in the end.

 

[TomB]

While I think there are some nostalgic similarities between the old bass gear and older cars, there is one huge difference that is hard to argue about. The new bass gear is a lot more power grid friendly and universally usable to replace older technology amps than electric cars are at replacing internal combustion engine vehicles.

If we all went to electric vehicles tomorrow, I'm not sure where the electricity would come from to charge them with our current infrastructure and grid capacity. Maybe we turn off our refrigerators, HVAC systems and/or let clothes air dry while we are charging our cars. IMO the problem is not an insignificant one with an obvious easy solution.

It's also worth noting that (last time I checked) roughly 60% of US electrical power was generated by fossil fuels. I'm not against electric vehicles, I am simply an engineer who likes to ask a few questions about how we actually make something work before rushing off to do it.

This is one reason few engineers run for office .

 

[amper]

Let's not get into the weeds discussing EVs on a bass guitar amplifier post. As an urbanist, I can talk all day on that topic, but this isn't the place for it.

 

[rstephens]

It's also worth noting that (last time I checked) roughly 60% of US electrical power was generated by fossil fuels.

Some people will always cling to the old ways. Meanwhile California has run on 100% renewables (wind, solar, hydro) for 30 of the last 38 days.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

I would like to buy, if I can, before I die, one more new bass rig and one more new guitar rig, just to have had them, but the truth is that I am planning for a future of ampless gigs, and will not miss hauling that heavy, bulky gear. If I eventually do get around to buying new stage rigs, they will probably never leave my home or rehearsal space, unless I move house.

I think that what many people are missing is that it's not impossible to get great sound out of ampless pedalboards running into PA equipment, but what you need to have to get great sound that way is a completely different mindset, just a completely different way of thinking about what a live performance "ought" to sound like.

There are plenty of situations in which using live amps is appropriate, and that's not going to change, because the nature of the physics of sound in space isn't going to change. Whenever there is a fundamental shift in technology and how we use it, there are always going to be those people who do not, cannot, will not, refuse to, or fail to make the transition, for whatever reason, and they don't necessarily *need* to, either.

But I, for one, am perfectly fine with putting the onus on the venue to provide appropriate audio reinforcement. In my experience, in my career as a musician, it has always been the venues who make the majority of the money, primarily because historically, they have been able to offload most of the responsibilities they ought to be shouldering onto individual musicians. Why should a venue operator invest in a good sound system, if by not doing so, they can force the thousands of musicians who play at their venue to compensate by investing *their* money in good sound?

Live music does not make money, the patrons consume the money making items for the venue whether it is big screen tvs, a “DJ” or whatever draws, and keeps them there spending cash.
Music played by humans or recorded costs licensing fees, liability insurance for the entertainer etc.
Putting the ownership of the venue to provide the sound reinforcement is impractical in many cases and contributes to fewer venues that will have this as their business model.
Many venues provide a stage and power only.
Ampless is great, I do it too, and have for a decade (casino gigs are fun).
Bringing the PA for the stage only venues: patio gigs, wineries, corporate events, private parties etc, for me bringing the bass rig was just another 2 items for me to move as the PA was also mine.

 

[daddymactx]

Live music does not make money, the patrons consume the money making items for the venue whether it is big screen tvs, a “DJ” or whatever.
Music played by humans or recorded costs licensing fees, liability insurance for the entertainer etc.
Putting the ownership of the venue to provide the sound reinforcement is impractical in many cases and contributes to fewer venues that will have this as their business model.
Many venues provide a stage and power only.
Ampless is great, I do it too, and have for a decade (casino gigs are fun).
Bringing the PA for the stage only venues: patio gigs, wineries, corporate events, private parties etc, for me bringing the bass rig was just another 2 items for me to move as the PA was also mine.

Like it or not, this brother is hitting it on all cylinders!!!

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Like it or not, this brother is hitting it on all cylinders!!!

I see what you did there

 

[amper]

Live music does not make money

I mean, this is demonstrably not true. There are thousands and thousands of music venues all across the coutry making a huge amount of money.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Let's not get into the weeds discussing EVs on a bass guitar amplifier post. As an urbanist, I can talk all day on that topic, but this isn't the place for it.

Only as it’s interrelated to the tech, and perception of “progress” and the masses overwhelming propensity to return to that which we have, and often should have left in the past.

Not for nuthin, but let us not look past the disposability of still serviceable products, that already exists just to replace it with something new that consumed a fair amount of resources before it gets to our hands, it’s not like old tech should just go to a landfill, sadly that often is the case.
One must consider the bigger picture of conservation, replace with new shiny: or continue to use things until they are no longer usable.
Thinking about Red Barchetta…
WALL·E

Conservation vs Consumerism

new is not always better when the old is just discarded.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

I mean, this is demonstrably not true. There are thousands and thousands of music venues all across the coutry making a huge amount of money.

I should clarify, in a small venue format.
Certainly cover band venues.
The small 3 day music only venues in urban venues? Sure. The vast majority of live music outlets is shrinking dramatically, in most markets as the interest in this form of entertainment is shrinking.
In the day Hollywood was teeming with venues and shows 7 days per week, now in one would be pressed to find more than a dozen venues per night, over weekends.

my statement was too generalized, but in context? Factual.

Vegas? Nashville? Reno? Yes money makers.

nowhere special Montana? Not so much.

 

[badinage]

Sometimes my smaller amps request elevation aids when they need to be near bigger amps. The way actors and politicians do.

 

[agedhorse]

I mean, this is demonstrably not true. There are thousands and thousands of music venues all across the coutry making a huge amount of money.

This is not true. It’s exceedingly hard to make money as a venue, which is why many of the venues are subsidized by things like city/county funding, naming rights, ticket surcharges, foundation grants, forgivable loans, tax subsidies, etc.

I worked in this area my whole pro audio career, I saw it first hand again and again.

 

[Bergerman]

I have lots of lightweight, small footprint amplification in my arsenal (Mesa Subway, MarkBass) but in my current band that is gigging 2 or 3 times a month, I bring this out. What is wrong with me?

I still get set up with less time and effort than our drummer with his hybrid kit and our keyboard player with his dual Leslie cabs, so I don't feel like I’m overdoing it at all. I’m actually really enjoying the big iron right now!

 

[Jim C]

Curious as to the groups opinion about medium weight amps.
Agreed that heavy cabinets and heavy amps are selling for much less on the used market but what's your opinion on mid weight gear?

As an example, the 20 pound Mesa M6 and M9's are selling in the used market for more than they used to. And we've read that they soon won't be repairable for lack of parts. People must really like them at approx. $600-$800 considering they have little value if the power section dies.
Same with the 45 lb. Aguilar db750 and 751. They seem to sell all day long at over $2K on the used market.
Vintage B-15's, B-25, Bassman heads, and others fall into this category.

Perhaps these are just limited exceptions?

 

[Jesuguru]

Curious as to the groups opinion about medium weight amps.
Agreed that heavy cabinets and heavy amps are selling for much less on the used market but what's your opinion on mid weight gear?

As an example, the 20 pound Mesa M6 and M9's are selling in the used market for more than they used to. And we've read that they soon won't be repairable for lack of parts. People must really like them at approx. $600-$800 considering they have little value if the power section dies.
Same with the 45 lb. Aguilar db750 and 751. They seem to sell all day long at over $2K on the used market.
Vintage B-15's, B-25, Bassman heads, and others fall into this category.

Perhaps these are just limited exceptions?

Medium-weight is my jam. I have a Walkabout, a GK 1001RBII, a GBE1200, and they're going nowhere till they die. Those Mesas, Aguilars, and Ampegs represent the best-of-the-best old-school lead sleds/tube amps, so those still into such amps for performance (real or perceived) and/or nostalgia gravitate to those more than others - hence top dollar. I've been eyeing a great condition B-15 in the local classifieds, and an M9 online. Indeed they won't last forever, and when they go they're gone. But as for amps, so for people - ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Use them while you're here, and play what you like (and ideally doesn't break your back).

I see it as somewhat analogous to 60's and 70's vintage instruments going for $$. They'll neither play nor sound as nice as my newer modern basses (sorry but facts), but I get the nostalgia factor and I don't judge. Amp or instrument, play what you enjoy without apology.

 

[hooky_marr]

Let's not get into the weeds discussing EVs on a bass guitar amplifier post. As an urbanist, I can talk all day on that topic, but this isn't the place for it.

yay urbanist bassists! Let's start a YouTube channel called Not Just Bass...

 

[hooky_marr]

I'm not against electric vehicles, I am simply an engineer who likes to ask a few questions about how we actually make something work before rushing off to do it.

Not to digress too much, but efficiency really becomes important. I think the biggest mistake the car industry made was to just plunk EV powertrains into existing vehicles instead of taking the opportunity to rethink what was possible.

For instance, an electric F-150 is still designed as if there's a massive V8 in the front, like a brick. It still has to push tons of air out of the way, limiting how efficient it can be. Most EVs are like this.

Aptera is a California company that has designed a super-efficient 2-passenger, 3-wheel electric car, but redesigning it from first principles. It uses hub motors, so there's no mechanical energy loss from a traditional transmission; three wheels reduces rolling resistance; and it's so light and aerodynamic it barely needs much power to move. It can top up its battery from built-in solar panels, getting a "free" 40 miles of range a day just sitting there. Their top model with the largest battery pack is supposed to get 1000 miles of range on a single charge.

Half of the energy transition isn't just Electrify All The Things, it's also making things more efficient; windows, insulation, heat pumps, local power generation to reduce transmission losses, district heating/cooling systems, geothermal, using well-known low-tech techniques like "Earthship" homes do, etc.

In cities, reducing car dependency, and increasing mobility options for everyone, means rescinding postwar zoning codes that prohibit anything but single-family homes on huge lots, and that place homes, work, and schools as far away from each other as possible, on curvy cul-de-sacs that make transit cost-ineffective. These are human creations, not laws of physics, and we can change them.

Rethinking amplification from first principles might be where things are going. Class D is one step along the way, rethinking sound emission using flat piezo microarrays might be the next.

 

[hooky_marr]

I love the smell of gasoline engines. Thick vinyl car interiors, bow sewn headliner when it's been there for a while, crank windows, analogue gauges. The whole area smells like gas, off-gassing vinyl, rubber, grease. So there's that, olfactory prediction.

i love the smell of carcinogens in the morning