Blew my 12".....AGAIN!!!!!

[Downunderwonder]

Aged Horse is right considering the tonal goals of the op (and who am I to contradict him) but if we just consider the power put in by the carvin amp it should be absolutely possible with a 3012lf to design a cab that will hold up down to 300 watt at 40hz. The key is that tuning frequency, it needs to go down. He needs a cab that is dedicated to perform in the 40 to 100 hz range. Temporarily stuffing the port will show that's the case, but imho will not be a good structural solution.

Chances are the op's problem will then shift from the cab to the amp.

I trust Agedhorse's estimate that no matter how optimised the tuning one 3012LF can't shift enough air in that passband to come near what the 8's gang shift in theirs.

 

[Arjank]

If the OP really wants a 12" that can take a beating then he should take a look at this one from BMS, it will eat the 3012LF for breakfast (remember that the stated xmax by BMS is voice-coil length / 2 minus the airgap depth which is really conservative, when klippeled it would definitely be larger)
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You need to build a new cabinet for that driver though, but it'll probably be able to solve the OP's problem. Cab volume between 1.2 - 1.4 cu ft and tuned somewhere between 40 - 45 hz.

 

[Ewo]

IANA designer--just had a note to add to the discussion, from personal experience.

A couple folks mentioned the Phil Jones gear as demonstration that deep lows can come from an array of small drivers. An example of deep lows from a single driver would be Mike Arnopol's MAS 110 sub cab. I've got a lot of gig time on his MAS 112 (yes, a single twelve), and more recently an MAS 46/110 stack, with a loud rock band. With a 5-er (Sadowsky Will Lee) into a GK MB800.

Both rigs are light, loud, and low--and amazingly compact for what they'll do. Cheap, no.

To the OP's dilemma: Sounds like the Avatar cab just isn't suited to being the sub in the system.

 

[Roxbororob]

If the OP really wants a 12" that can take a beating then he should take a look at this one from BMS, it will eat the 3012LF for breakfast (remember that the stated xmax by BMS is voice-coil length / 2 minus the airgap depth which is really unoptimistic, when klippeled it would definitely be larger)
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
You need to build a new cabinet for that driver though, but it'll probably be able to solve the OP's problem. Cab volume between 1.2 - 1.4 cu ft and tuned somewhere between 40 - 45 hz.

Hmmmm...very interesting. A bit expensive but impressive on paper.
Thx Arjank Have you built cabs with BMS?

Edit: What that lovely looking contraption in your avatar?

 

[Arjank]

Hmmmm...very interesting. A bit expensive but impressive on paper.
Thx Arjank Have you built cabs with BMS?

No, but I'm about to design a crossover for a company that's building a few line-array's that's using this driver. They choose this driver because they had "blow up" problems with other drivers.....

 

[Matthijs]

I trust Agedhorse's estimate that no matter how optimised the tuning one 3012LF can't shift enough air in that passband to come near what the 8's gang shift in theirs.

I do too, but if we limit the question to preventing his 12"speakers from blowing up, that's a solvable problem, just not in the Avatar enclosure. In the end another cab probably still won't match the spl he want's to match the 4*8 (if that is in fact what he wants, his demands might be a little more reasonable).

 

[Arjank]

The solution I am so desperately searching for is a cab to handle the low end, that won't blow, and I can actually be moved. I have 300W @ 8 Ohm, or 450@4Ohm to deliver to whatever said, speaker, cab I find BUT, I am not looking forward to moving a 15" or God forbid, an 18" .

You're running into Hofman's Law here.
The BMS driver I suggested will probably get it covered mechanically and the cab will be pretty small, the thing is it loves to be fed with power......
So it's either a bigger cab with a bigger driver to increase efficiency or to get a bigger amp (a hefty plate subwoofer class-D amp with adjustable crossover frequency and phase would do the trick IMO).

 

[Bigbri]

I only had the aluminum XL's, a 210, 410 and I used a friend's 115 for awhile. Don't know what came before those. Did you mean the Hydrive cabs? Those are new. But they still make and sell the full aluminum cones.

Where would one get a really nice tin can?

 

[Matthijs]

The performance of a fitting 3012lf cab will in that range probably be close tot the low end performance of the 4*8 and a bit better closer to the 40hz. I'm guessing, (without checking any figures) about -6 db below the average spl of the 4*8. So the op does double his overall power handling, but gains close to nothing in efficiency with the 12" cab. (it might be worthwhile to try 2 4*8 cabs, this case is a good argument for why mixing speaker sizes often is not the solution people think it is). It still might be just enough for his needs.

 

[Bigbri]

You're running into Hofman's Law here.
The BMS driver I suggested will probably get it covered mechanically and the cab will be pretty small, the thing is it loves to be fed with power......
So it's either a bigger cab with a bigger driver to increase efficiency or to get a bigger amp (a hefty plate subwoofer class-D amp with adjustable crossover frequency and phase would do the trick IMO).

You're running into Hofman's Law here.
The BMS driver I suggested will probably get it covered mechanically and the cab will be pretty small, the thing is it loves to be fed with power......
So it's either a bigger cab with a bigger driver to increase efficiency or to get a bigger amp (a hefty plate subwoofer class-D amp with adjustable crossover frequency and phase would do the trick IMO).

Cerwin Vega has a 21". Somewhere around 1500W.

 

[Arjank]

Cerwin Vega has a 21". Somewhere around 1500W.

The problem is that the OP doesn't want to schlep a large cab, so a 21" driver is out of the question.

 

[FrenchBassQC]

Five times

 

[Slevage]

IANA designer--just had a note to add to the discussion, from personal experience.

A couple folks mentioned the Phil Jones gear as demonstration that deep lows can come from an array of small drivers. An example of deep lows from a single driver would be Mike Arnopol's MAS 110 sub cab. I've got a lot of gig time on his MAS 112 (yes, a single twelve), and more recently an MAS 46/110 stack, with a loud rock band. With a 5-er (Sadowsky Will Lee) into a GK MB800.

Both rigs are light, loud, and low--and amazingly compact for what they'll do. Cheap, no.

To the OP's dilemma: Sounds like the Avatar cab just isn't suited to being the sub in the system.

There's been one of these on the Rhode Island CL for a while.

 

[pb9717]

My 2c, not that anyone asked. To the OP:

You really want to give the 12" one more try, the Eminence 3012 LF (LF stands for Low Frequency) is your guy. Time to cowboy up and break out your wallet. Those cheaper speakers are never going to cut it.

If you are going to do it right, retune the cabinet (info and details can be found online) to the best tuning for your needs and that box.

You might be pleasantly surprised at the results with what is arguably one of the best and toughest bass drivers available.

Thank you. I will likely go this route.

Boy, I really lit a fire here.

 

[pb9717]

If the OP really wants a 12" that can take a beating then he should take a look at this one from BMS, it will eat the 3012LF for breakfast (remember that the stated xmax by BMS is voice-coil length / 2 minus the airgap depth which is really conservative, when klippeled it would definitely be larger)
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
You need to build a new cabinet for that driver though, but it'll probably be able to solve the OP's problem. Cab volume between 1.2 - 1.4 cu ft and tuned somewhere between 40 - 45 hz.

Oooh. That driver looks very interesting.

 

[tallboybass]

This thread is pure, beautiful TalkBass chaos. Thanks.

 

[BurningSkies]

Spend the money. You can keep cheaping out on drivers that won't do the job for a third the price, but you're on what...your 6th speaker? By all accounts you've spent more than a single decent driver costs by repeatedly using the wrong driver for the wrong application. Although, I'm not sure that your application is quite in line with what you're trying to do anyway.

 

[dheafey]

For 1) I would use a crossover that sent anything less than 150Hz, not 100,000Hz. and for 2) I would put a low pass filter on there so nothing below 30Hz gets through.

I think you meant HIGH pass filter. And the frequency at which it is set would depend largely on the cabinet, driver, acoustic slope, etc... best done with modeling software.

 

[SteveHeissner]

Maybe a single 12 is not enough for your volume levels. And maybe bi-amping is not an optimal solution based on how and what you play.

 

[Plutonium244]

I just read the title, "Blew my 12".....AGAIN!!!!!" and not the OP or any of the follow up posts, but I congratulate you not only on your physical endowment, but your flexibility as well.