Bugera

[Sparky Mark]

Well, that settles that! Thanks. Good to know. I wasn't going to buy a Veyron anyway. The real thing by Genz Benz or now, Genzler is much more appealing to me, personally.

Wish I needed a new bass head! It would be hard not to purchase something in the D800 series by Mesa.

This particular Veyron is a copy of the Ampeg Portaflex 500/800, the tube pre version is a Streamliner copy. As far as I can remember the Streamliner had some problems with the blue LEDs not working inside and some Portaflex issues have been reported on here too. Very few if any manufacturers products are 100% reliable all the time and my experience with Bugera/Behringer has been broadly
positive.

 

[woody357]

I referred to the Streamliner. Technically the Genzler is also a ripoff of Fender's GenzBenz Streamliner unless there was some understanding between Big F and Mr Genzler.

Internals may be ripped but nobody ever posted 'hey my Buger sounds just like my buddies SL', so I doubt it.

You do realize that fender bought Genz Benz from Mr. Gentler then discontinued the brand Genz Benz. Now Mr Genzler started a new brand with just his name. So Genzler didn’t copy anybody except himself hahahahaha

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Bugera Veyron
View attachment 3527944

Genzler Magellan
View attachment 3527947

To some extent form follows function, though, and those are basically the things you want on an amp, and on one that small there's not that much space on the front. The amp module is obviously a bit different as one goes down to 4 ohms rather than 2.67 ohms.

 

[Downunderwonder]

You do realize that fender bought Genz Benz from Mr. Gentler then discontinued the brand Genz Benz. Now Mr Genzler started a new brand with just his name. So Genzler didn’t copy anybody except himself hahahahaha

Of course. I made that very obvious I think.

 

[Downunderwonder]

To some extent form follows function, though, and those are basically the things you want on an amp, and on one that small there's not that much space on the front. The amp module is obviously a bit different as one goes down to 4 ohms rather than 2.67 ohms.

Do you work for B? That's how it reads.

Form follows function gets you a rectangular box, knobs on the front, jacks on the back. The rest is design. Put any other 500w micro amp next to those two and count similarities. Rectangular, check, jacks, check.

 

[Nevada Pete]

This particular Veyron is a copy of the Ampeg Portaflex 500/800, the tube pre version is a Streamliner copy. As far as I can remember the Streamliner had some problems with the blue LEDs not working inside and some Portaflex issues have been reported on here too. Very few if any manufacturers products are 100% reliable all the time and my experience with Bugera/Behringer has been broadly
positive.

Well, I know the practice of "appropriating" designs is wide spread in the electronics industry. I remember when I was working as a tech in Silicon Valley I went into a lab and saw this guy in a lab coat peering through a very elaborate stereoscopic microscope and appearing to be making rough sketches and taking extensive notes on what he was seeing. So naturally (for me, anyway), I interrupted him and asked him what he was doing. He said he was studying the architecture of the newly released Blab-a-tron X25 microchip, or some such thing, so "we" could copy it and bring it into production at a lower price. Being the wet behind the ears know it all that I was, I was aghast. "But that's cheating", I said, "They spent a lot of money developing that device, and your participating in stealing the design!". He looked at me with an annoyed expression on his face and said something to the effect that, "Well, you better get used to it, kid, because everybody does it." I don't think I kept that job very long.

It's good to know you've had good experiences with Bugera/Behringer. As you say, no manufacturer's products are 100% reliable.

 

[roller]

Hmmmm... others might say that those two back panels are awfully similar... maybe a little too similar.

To some extent form follows function, though, and those are basically the things you want on an amp, and on one that small there's not that much space on the front. The amp module is obviously a bit different as one goes down to 4 ohms rather than 2.67 ohms.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Do you work for B? That's how it reads.

Definitely not.

Form follows function gets you a rectangular box, knobs on the front, jacks on the back. The rest is design. Put any other 500w micro amp next to those two and count similarities. Rectangular, check, jacks, check.

That was my point. There are probably more than 20 similar amps on the market, so there's a non-zero chance that two are going to look pretty similar. With lead sleds there was more variation, but more space to play with to have variation.

I'm not saying that Behringer wasn't influenced by the Genzler, just that with form following function more closely in a small form factor it might be more likely that we see convergent evolution. Even if it was a direct influence (design rather than accident) there isn't exactly anything that you could apply for a design patent for in such a simple layout. Something like the Ampeg PF series which have more distinctive styling I could see it making it to a legal dispute, though, and some of the legal cases over the exact shape of phones baffle me a bit as they are all much the same to my eye and no one makes a round phone or one with the display on the edge!

 

[Downunderwonder]

Definitely not.



That was my point. There are probably more than 20 similar amps on the market, so there's a non-zero chance that two are going to look pretty similar. With lead sleds there was more variation, but more space to play with to have variation.

I'm not saying that Behringer wasn't influenced by the Genzler, just that with form following function more closely in a small form factor it might be more likely that we see convergent evolution. Even if it was a direct influence (design rather than accident) there isn't exactly anything that you could apply for a design patent for in such a simple layout. Something like the Ampeg PF series which have more distinctive styling I could see it making it to a legal dispute, though, and some of the legal cases over the exact shape of phones baffle me a bit as they are all much the same to my eye and no one makes a round phone or one with the display on the edge!

Let's clear something up. B copied the Streamliner layout of every bit of the back, a lot of the front, and the shape to the case just to add insult to it. No further discussion needed.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Hmmmm... others might say that those two back panels are awfully similar... maybe a little too similar.

They certainly look pretty similar, but you'd want parallel outputs, somewhere to put the power in, a tuner out, send and return, etc., and some logical layout, so it that limited the number of sensible layouts to, say, 25 in a market with 20 amps the chances of two looking very similar at the back might be quite high, so it's not certain it's copied. Using another analogy to my last post, pretty much all cars have a wheel at each corner and a steering wheel and physics means that there are some limits on body shape if you want one that's efficient so there are an awful lot of cars that look much the same without them being direct copies. If VWs had copies of the engines of a Renault, and the same electronics, etc. then that would be suspicious. I admit that unlike my wife I am not a car person so mostly all I notice of cars is size, colour, and whether it's signalling correctly .

But equally, perhaps the Behringer is essentially a copy and the similarity isn't an accident. I'd defer to AgedHorse's views on how likely two amps are going to be that similar, I am just making a comment on a layman's appreciation of the issue which is what the internet is for, isn't it, to allow those of us with a keyboard and no special knowledge to shout loud enough to be heard

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Let's clear something up. B copied the Streamliner layout of every bit of the back, a lot of the front, and the shape to the case just to add insult to it. No further discussion needed.

To be fair I haven't seen a photo of the front and I very nearly said in my previous post that I'd be suspicious if the front looked the same too.

The shape of the case I don't think is that relevant as a small box with rounded corners seems to be used by TC, MB and probably a dozen other manufacturers these days and seems to make sense in terms of sharp corners not being that pleasant light enough to pick up in one hand. If it was the more distinctive shape of an Ampeg PF amp then the box shape would seem more of an issue as that doesn't conform to the rounded cornered box that is so common at the moment.

 

[Downunderwonder]

For those interested, Uli got started off in business as a student making direct component level copies of an expensive mixing console. I guess he did the first few as favours for poor students but the business model was obvious and exploited to the absolute max.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

For those interested, Uli got started off in business as a student making direct component level copies of an expensive mixing console. I guess he did the first few as favours for poor students but the business model was obvious and exploited to the absolute max.

I would certainly not support the abuse of IP rights. About the only two direct copies of things by Behringer I've bought are the 7 band EQ Boss copy (no idea where my original one went - perhaps the same place as EMG Geezer pickups go) and an OC-2 (well, it has a few extra options) after I gave my 80s original one away to someone. Neither of those would be under any IP protection today. I considered the OC-3 clone but that is recent enough I'd be concerned it might still have IP protection, although I'm not aware of Boss trying to stop import. The other Behringer stuff I have is pretty generic - mixers and microphones that don't have much IP protection by now. The thing I have that is different from that is the Bass V-amp which shares some elements of shape and concept with the POD, but then digital multi-effects were already established at that point. The bass synth sounds on it are much better than contemporary PODs and I still find them to be the best, for me, of any unit under around £250. There are some units under £250 I haven't tried, just listened to the demos of, that wouldn't tempt me to get them based on a desire to have punchy bass sounds, but YMMV is you are looking for something that isn't (as an example of something that people may know) like something like Absolute by Scritti Politti.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Definitely not.



That was my point. There are probably more than 20 similar amps on the market, so there's a non-zero chance that two are going to look pretty similar. With lead sleds there was more variation, but more space to play with to have variation.

I'm not saying that Behringer wasn't influenced by the Genzler, just that with form following function more closely in a small form factor it might be more likely that we see convergent evolution. Even if it was a direct influence (design rather than accident) there isn't exactly anything that you could apply for a design patent for in such a simple layout. Something like the Ampeg PF series which have more distinctive styling I could see it making it to a legal dispute, though, and some of the legal cases over the exact shape of phones baffle me a bit as they are all much the same to my eye and no one makes a round phone or one with the display on the edge!

The dumb guy here, don't most all of the class D amp makers use the same ICE power chip as well?

 

[-Asdfgh-]

The dumb guy here, don't most all of the class D amp makers use the same ICE power chip as well?

From what I understand from AgedHorse is that's only a small part of the design. Even if it's the same in the Bugera and Genzler the minimum impedance is different, so presumably other design choices affecting thermal limits even if it's the same power unit inside? Given the Genzler can support 2.67 ohms perhaps that implies better thermal design?

 

[buzzbass]

I would spend just a bit more on an Aguilar or fender rumble...even a Traynor small block would be a good option...
I have a tonehammer 350
And a sb500 from Traynor...both have been reliable for years already

thanks for the other ideas

 

[buzzbass]

I owned the Bugera Veyron Mosfet for a very short time and I currently own both the Genz Benz Streamliner 600 and Genzler Magellan 800. The Veyron sounds nothing like either of those 2 heads nor does it feel like them as well. It is very loud but seems to lack muscle and girth to my ears. Very bright as well.

Some people may like the Veyron heads, but they are definitely not in the same class as the Genz or Genzler heads. IMHO and IME.

very brite eh ? homey don't like that. I want rumble

 

[buzzbass]

thanks guys, great reading thus far. A buddy had the tube version and regrets selling it now. That comment about them be very brite sounding has me concerned though

 

[agedhorse]

The dumb guy here, don't most all of the class D amp makers use the same ICE power chip as well?

No, some do but certainly not all.

Also, there is ICE Power and, the company that designs/manufacturers entire integrated SMPS solutions and there is a line of SMPS controller ICs with the prefix ICE. The two are unrelated.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Anyone have any experience/thoughts or opinions with this thing ? My SVT 4pro rack is getting a bit heavy for my old ass to carry. Thanks in advance............

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...6Td-aejpZ05YDmSakX7O2hnEh1fkuos4lpALteqzF-Kcg

Oh, it's a 500w amp by the way. I got that from corporate.