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Chances are You're not that Special!

If Gouche or Pallidino level talent is very common, cool.
If people want to believe that there are tons of great players running around that don't know how to read or know any theory, nothing will convince them otherwise. The very few great players that I've encountered that don't know theory or how to read are invariably one trick ponies - they know one style. I don't know any local level players that can play a variety of styles that can't read/write music and have a good command of theory.

Good for you Dr. Cheese for sharing your view on the importance of learning. It's good for those who have NOT committed to life long ignorance to know that there is value in learning. :D

I'm 58 and have been playing for more than 45 years. I still pick up Simandl every 4 or 5 years to refresh the basics. One of my favorite quotes, When Casals (then age 93) was asked why he continued to practice the cello three hours a day, he replied, “I’m beginning to notice some improvement.”
 
If you are building a career, you are not using the Internet to debate me about reading music unless you are trying to be reverse Jeff Berlin.

Point taken there. I was just noting that many young musicians starting out today probably spend a good amount of time online and I'm sure at least some of that time is spent on musician boards such as TB. Also, I'm not personally debating you on your points (except on this one and it's a minor point really). I actually agree with everything else you've written in this thread.
 
@Dr. Cheese practicing reading on bass is great! I'm definitely in the pro-reading camp. It's an undervalued skill in some circles, IMO.

Do you play any other instruments? I think that playing piano is a great resource for learning to read. There's a plethora of method books out there that are graded to match ones playing and reading level. I am partial to the Faber books, but there are many out there.

Also, there's sight singing. That's worth a shot too.
 
In the classical music, reading is absolutely, unequivocally fundamental. That's how orchestras a hundred large all get their parts ready to play in perfect sync, and it's how the music's composer communicates exactly what is desired of each musician. Lord knows the 2nd oboist would never be able to transcribe their part from a Mahler symphony recording, not the notes, much less the dynamic subtleties.

In popular music, we've been able to get away without reading as much as parts are generally a lot easier to hear and learn, as not many bands are more than about 5 people, especially not rhythm sections. But let's say I want to learn Portrait of Tracy, or the What Cha' Gonna Do For Me line. I'd still MUCH rather read and learn those than just try to pick them out of the recordings.

And yet, developing a strong, adaptable ear, especially one reinforced with some conceptual music theory, is ever more important; it's part of what helps us learn to improvise, and whole genres of music (or subgenres? jam band, etc) have come from groups communicating using their ears while playing. As noted elsewhere, many classical musicians who can study orchestral parts to very difficult music cannot improvise their way out of a Hot Pocket wrapper, and just like excellent by-ear-only musicians who don't read, their options are limited. They may be happy with their options, as may ear-only musicians...but putting time and study into both, in my humblest opinion, ultimately strengthens one's abilities at the other, and of course opens up that many new opportunities to play and earn a living where applicable.

And the weirder the music, the more likely you need to be able to read to get thru it. And the weird stuff can be really really fun. Also, sight reading is an advanced skill whereby you can maintain position/fretboard awareness while reading music for the first time, and with practice, you'll magically get better. I'm just starting on the no-looking-at-the-fretboard journey, but in past lives, was skilled on brass/woodwind instruments and sightreading not only got me through gigs and new gigs, it did wonders for keeping practice time efficient when doing things like a 2-hour Easter passion play on oboe, with 20 charts and a week to get ready. And good money for doing what I loved doing!

Ultimately, I feel like no style of learning music is overrated, and for particular groups, various styles are hugely underrated. In our particular group here, I know of many hugely skilled players who don't read, and I fully respect the choice to work strictly by ear. But I also feel like the skill of reading is a 100% positive bonus, one that takes effort but that is worth that effort.

"As noted elsewhere, many classical musicians who can study orchestral parts to very difficult music cannot improvise their way out of a Hot Pocket wrapper..."

This wins my vote for the quote of this thread! :smug:
 
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Seems contradicting, but I won't press the issue.



And, I still disagree. I could play entire Green Day albums by ear before I learned how to read. In all of my college auditions, the ear training part was always easiest. Anybody can have a stellar ear if they put their mind to it. You can be just as good as any of your idols at whatever they do if you work hard enough.

No where in my OP did I say success or fame equaled ability. You are implying that. It seems contradicting because you want an argument
@Dr. Cheese practicing reading on bass is great! I'm definitely in the pro-reading camp. It's an undervalued skill in some circles, IMO.

Do you play any other instruments? I think that playing piano is a great resource for learning to read. There's a plethora of method books out there that are graded to match ones playing and reading level. I am partial to the Faber books, but there are many out there.

Also, there's sight singing. That's worth a shot too.

Bass is pretty much it for except a little keyboard and ukelele.
 
No where in my OP did I say success or fame equaled ability. You are implying that. It seems contradicting because you want an argument

Okay, I interpreted what you typed differently than you intended it. It's called a miscommunication, and these things happen, you don't need to be so defensive. Just trying to have a conversation :cool:

Do you assume everyone who disagrees with you and tries to have a healthy debate is just trying to be annoying? You posted an opinion on a public forum. You should really expect to be debated with.
 
Okay, I interpreted what you typed differently than you intended it. It's called a miscommunication, and these things happen, you don't need to be so defensive. Just trying to have a conversation :cool:

Do you assume everyone who disagrees with you and tries to have a healthy debate is just trying to be annoying? You posted an opinion on a public forum. You should really expect to be debated with.

As you said, it's called communication. You came off like you wanted to argue, and I argued with you.
 
"You are not that special" is the best excuse for giving up. They should teach this in kindergarten from day one. Just line those little kids up every morning and tell them that they have little or no chance of ever doing anything remarkable. Break them down and crush those dreams. That would keep them from wasting time trying to be creative and get them ready for life as a drone.
Perfect.

Beat the tar out of that straw man. I'm pretty sure kindergarteners don't read TB.
 
I am quite a poor reader who gets a regular monthly check for playing bass. I have been in bands, done demos, and even complimented for my playing, but I know that I don't have the ear and aptitude the pick up things the way people who are more naturally gifted than me can. My ear has taken me as far as I can go.
I'd hate to play devil's advocate but you're kinda keeping yourself down here. Your ear or your natural gifts are not set limiting factors on how good you can be. You can train your ear.
 
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Well Dr Cheese, we can be pretty sure that you are not very special since that is what you believe. But please do not make that blanket judgement for everyone else. There are lots of people who have ambition and dreams. And who knows... if they don't listen to you they might actually accomplish something.

That word special seems to be stuck in your craw. I don't think encouraging newbies to develop more skills is going to hurt them.
 
I'd hate to play devil's advocate but you're kinda keeping yourself down here. Your ear or your natural gifts are not set limiting factors on how good you can be. You can train your ear.

The things I am learning in Patterns for Jazz has certainly helped my ear. Recognizing scales, modes, chord progressions, is fundamental for ear training.
 
It seems I am the only one in my band who can read music. It is frustrating at times. I will show up with a new song all written and each part printed out with both musical notation and tab, but they won't even try it. I don't get it, and I just about don't care anymore.
yea buddy, the bass player is always the only one..we scream things like 'Major 7th, not minor!', and get stared at like we're space aliens. I'm playing with a guitar player right now who's phenomenal...the guy toured LA in the 80s alongside the Motley Crew type bands, and opened for Iron Maiden in Japan...and last week, he tried to describe a tempo change in HZ...he wanted us to slow the tempo 'from 440 hz to 435 hz'...lmao
 
The things I am learning in Patterns for Jazz has certainly helped my ear. Recognizing scales, modes, chord progressions, is fundamental for ear training.

Yep. You have to know what you're hearing. Just a general comment, not directed at you, just tagged to this post - reading music is not hard. The dot is on that space, it's an A, but since we're playing in Db, it's an Ab. Different dots mean different note lengths. That's about all there is to it. Then you practice and get better at it. "Fluent" at sight reading doesn't mean that you're just fluent at sight reading, it also means that you've improved as a player and can make connections and anticipate the upcoming notes.

I will say that bass is unique in the guitar family. We can do sight reading of notation far more easily than the skinny six stringers. Hey have to play 3,4,5 notes simultaneously and those notes can each be played at numerous spots on the fretboard so you're going from three notes that could be played six different ways to the next three note chord that could be played another six different ways and have to do a lot of mental math to pick the right chords played the right ways. With a lot of experience you can do it, but it's tough. That's why guitarists usually use tab for melodic lines and chord charts with rhythms for the chucka chucka parts.

With piano, on the other hand, a middle C is played at one spot only. A D3 at exactly one key. That's a perfect situation for standard notation.

Bass is somewhere in between. We usually only play one note at a time and can do standard notation with just a bit of practice. Skim the chart and look for any tricky parts, spend a few seconds planning those and you're ready to go.
 
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Maybe he SHREDS like a monster. Hertz are a unit of frequency (and thus time - cycles per second) it can be translated easily into tempo. He just wanted to play at 435 BPM.
He definitely shreds like a monster (he might've wanted to play 16th notes at 435 bpm, but it was too much math)...the 'technical' questions he asks me are questions like 'How does Eddie Van Halen get his sound?' But then you hear him play Purple Haze and you understand...
 
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He definitely shreds like a monster (he might've wanted to play 16th notes at 435 bpm, but it was too much math)...the 'technical' questions he asks me are questions like 'How does Eddie Van Halen get his sound?' But then you hear him play Purple Haze and you understand...

Ah crap, you caught my post pre-edit! Since hertz is cycles per second and tempo is beats per minute, he actually wanted to play at 26,100 BPM. Must be that new deathcore stuff all the kids are talking about these days.
 
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Ah crap, you caught my post pre-edit! Since hertz is cycles per second and tempo is beats per minute, he actually wanted to play at 26,100 BPM. Must be that new deathcore stuff all the kids are talking about these days.
Whatever it is, it's pure 80s coming from him...our band sounds like Alice in Chains and Tool were walking down the street and got gang-banged by Van Halen and Blue Oyster Cult, and forced to play reggae music at gun point. (that shredding sounds awesome over a Bob Marley song, though)
However, before I contribute fully to being completely off topic..I will say that classical training and college theory never damaged my ability to improv, nor interfered with any 'natural' feeling of playing by ear. I sight-read throughout school including electric bass, and no doubt it is an essential skill to anyone hoping to make a career as a sit-in player. I'd certainly be rusty now, and would have to study up for some time to be able to do it today...that's a 'use it or lose it' skill. The association between where fingers are and what's on paper has to be exercised regularly. I don't think about what notes I'm playing unless I have to for something new.
 
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