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CITES - What every bass player should know

#681
Turnaround said:
This topic has arisen in different threads, but I thought it deserved a thread of its own, since it is so important to musical instrument makers and owners alike.

CITES is the Convention for International Trade in Endangered Species. The legislation from it is having a profound effect on instrument makers since it restricts their ability to source and use woods that are classified as "endangered". CITES is used to restrict the import and export of these endangered species - i.e. it legally prevents such species from crossing international boundaries.

But the problem is not just with manufacturers. If you own an instrument that has any part made from any of the species listed in CITES, and you cross an international boundary, your instrument may be seized. If you live outside the US and need service to your Martin guitar (they have a lifetime warranty to the original owner), should you send your instrument to Martin it will likely be confiscated at the border if it has any Brazilian rosewood.

There are a number of cited species used by instrument makers including some Cocobolo, a number of Rosewoods, Grenadillo, some Mahoganies, same Sandalwoods, some Yews an numerous others.

When crossing the border, your instrument may be examined and if any of the woods seem to be a designated species, the instrument will likely be seized. Part of the problem is that it's not always easy to identify a designated species from one that is not named in CITES. Cocobolo is a good example of such a wood. Cocobolo from Panama is restricted, but that from Mexico is not. They look almost identical. The only way to tell for sure is in a testing laboratory, and to do the testing a sample of the wood must be taken.

Recently some instruments were shipped to a retailer in Canada from a manufacturer in California. The top wood on these basses was Cocobolo, from Mexico - not from Panama. In order to ensure the instruments would not be confiscated at the border, the manufacturer had to prove to the authorities in the USA that Cocobolo was sourced from Mexico, and had to pay for US certification. The certificates for each instrument had to be include in the shipment. Despite that, the instruments were held at the Canadian border - because the included documentation were photocopies. The shipper had held the originals and sent the copies. Not good enough.

As far as I know there is no mechanism for having your instrument officially certified free of designated species under CITES. The instruments in the case above now have certification, but that's only because the manufacturer was able to prove the source of the materials. If you don't already have such certification from the manufacturer you may find it difficult to get. Even then it may not satisfy the officials at the border.

Here's a link to the USDA CITES Timber Species Manual. Perhaps it should be required reading for anyone who owns an instrument.

Invalid Link Removed

Please add any information you have to this thread.
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Ya this isn’t going to happen...okay let’s go get those instruments with endangered wood...so easy and not time consuming also worth the authorities time...lololol
This does not deserve a thread
 
#682
Funk Fashion said:
Ya this isn’t going to happen...okay let’s go get those instruments with endangered wood...so easy and not time consuming also worth the authorities time...lololol
This does not deserve a thread
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Other than a couple of multi-million dollar raids and confiscations against Gibson, you are right in the very limited sense that the authorities generally aren’t interested in coming to your house or place of business to grab your guitars and basses.

But this thread is about cross-border trade, not about namesless authorities “going” to hunt down instruments.

Customs inspectors don’t have to go anywhere. They just sit and wait for the instruments to come to them.

Also, it’s also not just about wood. Guitars have been seized at the border under CITES because the paperwork wasn’t filed for shell inlays.

There ahave been 35 pages of information added to this thread since that OP in 2014, including numerous examples of personal experience where corporations and individuals lost instruments during border crossings.

If you trade instruments internationally, you might want to read a little further before jumping to conclusions.
 
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#685
Funk Fashion said:
Ya this isn’t going to happen...okay let’s go get those instruments with endangered wood...so easy and not time consuming also worth the authorities time...lololol This does not deserve a thread
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Got snark?

In any case, you are mistaken. Traveling across international borders is a genuine problem with instruments containing endangered rainforest woods such as Dalberia Negra or pernamuco. This includes bows and woodwinds using elephant ivory, which is quite common. Again, we are talking about instruments or wood crossing borders, not raids on individual's homes. You might want to familiarize yourself a bit more with the topic and get back to us.
 
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#686
Jim Carr said:
Got snark?

In any case, you are mistaken. Traveling across international borders is a genuine problem with instruments containing endangered rainforest woods such as Dalberia Negra or pernamuco. This includes bows and woodwinds using elephant ivory, which is quite common. Again, we are talking about instruments or wood crossing borders, not raids on individual's homes. You might want to familiarize yourself a bit more with the topic and get back to us.
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Ya I can’t find any cases of instruments being seized... can you really imagine a well versed endangered wood authority telling you that he will have to take your guitar because of its wood. We are going to take it and put it next to some other endangered rosewood so we can have more...again it’s a pointless thread unless you are trying to produce something that requires you to import an endangered wood.
 
#688
steve_rolfeca said:
Other than a couple of multi-million dollar raids and confiscations against Gibson, you are right in the very limited sense that the authorities generally aren’t interested in coming to your house or place of business to grab your guitars and basses.

But this thread is about cross-border trade, not about namesless authorities “going” to hunt down instruments.

Customs inspectors don’t have to go anywhere. They just sit and wait for the instruments to come to them.

Also, it’s also not just about wood. Guitars have been seized at the border under CITES because the paperwork wasn’t filed for shell inlays.

There ahave been 35 pages of information added to this thread since that OP in 2014, including numerous examples of personal experience where corporations and individuals lost instruments during border crossings.

If you trade instruments internationally, you might want to read a little further before jumping to conclusions.
Click to expand...


Ya so I assumed correctly that this wasn’t the forum all major vendors discussed the law. I’m glad we are notifying the mass musician public but no instruments are going to be seized...just think about what they would do with the guitar after they seized it? Go put it with the other wood? Lmao they are just making it difficult for the manufactures and said hey while we’re at it why don’t we make an individual pay a one time fee to transport there already owned endangered wood. Again there is no reason for this forum topic all it is doing is creating speculation. Lmao...airport authority “ya sir we are going to need that guitar” what are you doing with it? “It’s endangered and we need to make sure we have the wood from your instrument accounted for” you realize the obsurdity of this interaction. Oh and worst case scenario you just don’t fly right then before you can get a certificate or whatever it is
 
#690
Funk Fashion said:
Ya I can’t find any cases of instruments being seized... can you really imagine a well versed endangered wood authority telling you that he will have to take your guitar because of its wood. We are going to take it and put it next to some other endangered rosewood so we can have more...again it’s a pointless thread unless you are trying to produce something that requires you to import an endangered wood.
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This happens to a lot of people that don’t have the correct paperwork filled out. The regular person doesn’t have the extra jack to pay for this. A simple google search shows you this. Is it a ripoff? Absolutely. Is it a headache? Yes. Is it real? Yes. The governments that seize the items destroy them. It doesn’t always make sense, but then again your posts are woefully ignorant of the issue and could use a dose of reality.
 
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#691
I personally had a bass held up by customs for CITES enforcement reasons for 3 months after I bought and paid for it it. It simply isn’t true that CITES isn’t affecting us. It’s true that there are very few cases of individual instruments being seized, but it’s also true that many musicians have been affected by it. And if any one of us is the “one in a thousand” sucker whose bass gets seized that’s one too many. That’s why this thread exists - to help us all avoid the risks and the hassle posed by CITES.
 
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#693
s_wood said:
I personally had a bass held up by customs for CITES enforcement reasons for 3 months after I bought and paid for it it.
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And my buyer in The Netherlands had my/his bass held there for the same reason. But over there you can get the needed permits within hours or days, not the period of months that it takes here in the US.
 
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#695
Funk Fashion said:
Ya no one is taking anything this is a runoff law that is meant for the manufactures
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Yeah mate, go on with your life. Cross international borders often, looking like a musician, and take zero precautions with yourself or your belongings before you do, trusting random border pi...errr...guardians with their super high IQ, job satisfaction, natural love for musician-looking types, patience and excellent ability to apply logic & critical thinking and let them handle things on your behalf in the face of THE LAW as they may or may not understand it if they even care to ... see how that goes.

Those of who've travelled internationally anytime in the past couple deacades are unlikely to take the same tact. Live and let die.
 
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#698
redstrand said:
This happens to a lot of people that don’t have the correct paperwork filled out. The regular person doesn’t have the extra jack to pay for this. A simple google search shows you this. Is it a ripoff? Absolutely. Is it a headache? Yes. Is it real? Yes. The governments that seize the items destroy them. It doesn’t always make sense, but then again your posts are woefully ignorant of the issue and could use a dose of reality.
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Lol Ive found 1 guy who had some flutes seized and I don’t need to do google search to know that if you are flying internationally you might have the amount of money to be able to easily transport your instrument if need be. (The amount is significantly less lol) The execution by these governments who formed cites to protect plants and animals are going to seize/steal something someone purchased to have the endangered material destroyed? I’m still not getting the feeling that people’s instruments are being destroyed so that the endangered material they were made of will be sure to not play music but to be ensuring the endangered population. Someone somewhere is aware that destroying the endangered wood is not what they want to do. Do you not see the obsurdity?
 
#699
StayLow said:
Yeah mate, go on with your life. Cross international borders often, looking like a musician, and take zero precautions with yourself or your belongings before you do, trusting random border pi...errr...guardians with their super high IQ, job satisfaction, natural love for musician-looking types, patience and excellent ability to apply logic & critical thinking and let them handle things on your behalf in the face of THE LAW as they may or may not understand it if they even care to ... see how that goes.

Those of who've travelled internationally anytime in the past couple deacades are unlikely to take the same tact. Live and let die.
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Oh I’ll purchase the easily obtained permit but im just not sure if we should be worried about the organization set in place to protect the endangered wood to be organizing any kind of law that involves them locating endangered wood, seizing it, than destroying it.
 
#700
redstrand said:
That and the person has only been a member for two weeks...smh
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Being a member of talkbass is the measure of my credibility lmao. I guess the easily obtained permits to travel or sell internationally with said endangered wood should be speculated about the hypothetical situation of all of these informed international musicians having their guitars seized by the program that was put in place to protect it to have it destroyed. This makes way to much sense to me and am blown away this many people are talking about what is just a new permit we have to get lol
 

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