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Frustration with drummer.
- Thread starter bumperbass
- Start date
I don't think the drummer is as off here as you've tried to convey. I think you weren't expecting it,it threw you off and annoyed the hell out of you. i think once you noticed it, it became the only thing you could hear and drives you nuts.
Since it's a cover band (not a tribute band), be more flexible with the songs.
In my band, during song writing practices, my guitarist tries to get behind the drum set ALL the time. He writes his riffs according to a basic drum machine. My drummer is amazing, but the guitarist tries to dumb down what he plays to match the basic drum machine beats. We just let him show him whatever beat and my drummer goes back to doing what he was doing before.
That being said, go with majority rule here. If the guitarist and/or vocalist don't mind then why go against the grain? As stated previously, if you question something, say something and see how everyone else feels about it. Don't let it erk you so much.
Since it's a cover band (not a tribute band), be more flexible with the songs.
In my band, during song writing practices, my guitarist tries to get behind the drum set ALL the time. He writes his riffs according to a basic drum machine. My drummer is amazing, but the guitarist tries to dumb down what he plays to match the basic drum machine beats. We just let him show him whatever beat and my drummer goes back to doing what he was doing before.
That being said, go with majority rule here. If the guitarist and/or vocalist don't mind then why go against the grain? As stated previously, if you question something, say something and see how everyone else feels about it. Don't let it erk you so much.
Are you saying that the ABB and SRV played completely different arrangements every time or that the leads are free to improvise over a known arrangement?
svtb15
Inactive
- Mar 22, 2004
- 13,004
- 4,741
- Disclosures
- I play it all. Whatever works for the gig. Q+
I understand what you are saying.
But the gigs that i do and rehearsals that I am paid to attend have a no messing around.. Its pro gig.
We have it together at rehearsal..Many times there is no 2nd rehearsal. Second time is the show, sometime on Live TV.
I did the American Music Awards . The band was off for months. Rehearsal was called the night before at a rehearsal place in LA. We ran the arrangement 2 to 3 times.. Next day is live showtime ..
Its what Im used to.
All parts should be learned and written or known at home on practice time .
Rehearsal is when everyone come together to hear it for the first time all together. SURE some changes may be shifted to accommodate vocal accents etc. But rehearsal is NOT the place to be learning individual parts.
Like I said , Its what im used to. Just nailing it
But the gigs that i do and rehearsals that I am paid to attend have a no messing around.. Its pro gig.
We have it together at rehearsal..Many times there is no 2nd rehearsal. Second time is the show, sometime on Live TV.
I did the American Music Awards . The band was off for months. Rehearsal was called the night before at a rehearsal place in LA. We ran the arrangement 2 to 3 times.. Next day is live showtime ..
Its what Im used to.
All parts should be learned and written or known at home on practice time .
Rehearsal is when everyone come together to hear it for the first time all together. SURE some changes may be shifted to accommodate vocal accents etc. But rehearsal is NOT the place to be learning individual parts.
Like I said , Its what im used to. Just nailing it
There’s many famous musicians who will freely tell you they don’t play their music in concert the same way it’s been recorded. The best example of that is a Tull collection where you had remastered classic recordings on one CD and the same songs played “as we might record them today” as Ian Anderson put it.
I personally thought the newer versions were better.
Then there was the additional CD with live concert tracks where the same songs were done differently yet again.
So apparently the people who wrote the songs and originally recorded them aren’t all that hung up on “authenticity.” But they wrote the songs so I guess they at least can do that.
Not that you need to be in a famous or successful originals band. I’ve been in several over the years that weren’t. But even so, we were constantly playing with and tweaking our own material. I always felt our songs weren’t really “finished” until they’d been played out live for several months. Because further refinements would often be made based on the crowd’s reaction during a gig. Some things you'd let run longer, other things you’d shorten or decide to cut out, etc. So maybe that’s why I just don’t get rigid adherence to note-for-note for anyone not in a tribute band. Which is not to say you shouldn’t respect the song or the original artist. But playing sonic dress up games just doesn't resonate with me.
As far as Mustang Sally goes I’ll have to agree. I’d guess about 95% of the bands playing it aren’t even aware they’re completely misplaying the groove in that song.
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I think you are in a rare position, and talking about very high end, high tier professional gigs. That’s not the same as a cover band.
First order of business is to find out if anyone else noticed. I'm not knocking singers (I am one), but they usually don't tune into things like kick drum parts. Ask the guitar player and keyboard player if they heard the same thing.
Next, stop the song in the middle during the next rehearsal. In order to be somewhat diplomatic (being that people are ridiculously sensitive these days) say it like this.... "Hey, can you do me a favor? Try it like this." And then imitate the drum line. Maybe pound out the kick drum part on a table and mouth the rest. After you do that, simply say "It's my problem. The way you're doing it is throwing me off."
You've put your dukes down. There shouldn't be any argument. If the drummer says "You shut up and play bass and I'll play drums." you'll at least get your answer. Either other musicians will come to your defense, or they'll agree with the drummer. If the latter, you'll know it's time to move on.
If the OP is ultimately concerned about the audience not grooving based upon the rhythm modifications I can only think of one final determinent.
Take it to the stage and get those people on the dancefloor!!!
Take it to the stage and get those people on the dancefloor!!!
I know it's probably been said in the 9 pages I didn't have time to read, but I'll repeat it anyway just because I think it's important. This is the opposite of how I work in a band. When I show up for rehearsal, I'm all ears with my drummer. He's a good player, and I'm usually good with whatever feel he lays down, and I'll adapt my groove to his kick drum pattern. If there's something I'm really not feeling, then I'll tell him " Yo man, I'm not feeling it," and we'll try something else, and 9 times out of 10, it's all good. I feel like a lot of the fun that comes from being in a band is the changes you make between the recordings, and what you play.
The band I'm in plays Knock on Wood (Eddie Floyd), and that has a very distinct drum and bass part that we threw out the window, because it felt old to us. I let our drummer lay down a kick, and I just bounced right off of that, and people love it when we play it. That's my 2 cents to do with as you please.
I do want to acknowledge that there are a few songs that have bass parts and drum parts that shouldn't be changed from the recordings, but I think most people on here will understand that. Anyways, I'll stop blabbering now...
It is very possible to have a conversation with the drummer and simply resolve the issue without incident.
Read between the lines of what people here are telling you.
Talk to the drummer, listen to the song with the group. Be nice about it, state your case and be a good listener. Or find other people to play with.
Read between the lines of what people here are telling you.
Talk to the drummer, listen to the song with the group. Be nice about it, state your case and be a good listener. Or find other people to play with.
I don’t think it’s so cut and dried with cover bands. Covers can be tributes, loose covers (kinda the Cliffs Notes versions where you hit all the high points and signature parts, but do the rest as you will), and “realizations” where you take a song and freely interpret and rework it like Manfred Mann so often did.
I’m in the realization camp when it comes to me covering a song. I prefer not to do a song exactly per the recording nor a half-assed plow through version. If I really like a song I don’t mind doing something with it however. But even so I’d still rather play my band’s own music.
Absolutely agree, about songs continuing to evolve long after they're recorded.
As a side note, I've known people in tribute bands and they don't just play the original recorded versions of songs. They will often have a specific live version from a specific date that they try to emulate. Or do a hybrid, like "original recording version, with the ending from the December 3, 1984 bootleg".
I still want OP to answer the question I asked in the first couple of pages and haven't seen a response to: Is the drummer being inconsistent or are they just making choices you don't like?
My advice would be to pick your battles wisely; the examples that you gave were good examples of songs that have to be played a certain way; this is not the case with every song, you might want to suggest dropping those songs until you can all agree on how precise they will be played. In most cases a slight variation in tempo and I mean slight should not throw you off, I am not sure why it would. I have played with great drummers that simply do not learn songs and I have played with decent drummers that really do their homework to learn tunes; both obviously have their up sides and down sides but I prefer to play with someone that does some work on the tunes on their own, it is the professional approach but as some other people have pointed out I also have no interest in being a human CD player all night either.
svtb15
Inactive
- Mar 22, 2004
- 13,004
- 4,741
- Disclosures
- I play it all. Whatever works for the gig. Q+
Sometimes yes and sometimes NO...
Just my thoughts on learning and KNowing the material that needs to be known for a gig.. Im one of those guys that if need be . i also know everyone else's part too..
I do a guitar show in town when I am home.
If i am one of the the bass players on the show that weekend. I may have to play with 4 or 5 different guest guitar players over the weekend.
We might get one rehearsal.
One year we got NO rehearsal.
I had to do a 40 minute set with George Lynch from Dokken.
He started Mr Scary.. No rehearsals.
We had to do our homework. It's not that it is hard. But there are changes that need to be on.
Then the next day it's Ted Nugent ( which is very easy to know those parts) or guitar great/ grammy winner Redd Volkert later that afternoon.
Wedding gigs that I play are more difficult. Wider variety of styles and tunes .And the leader DEMANDS that EVERYONE have it together when we get together,, since he is paying for the rehearsal room.
So its NOT just high profile gigs at all. For me its Weddings too.. It's doing OUR homework so everyone can move forward and onto the next song .
I was brought up in NYC with HEAVY competition around me. If you don't rise to the top fast, someone will be on your tail to grab it from you in a second. It made me better and competitive to be able to get the more high profile stuff.
For me, If i'm gonna do something. Im gonna do it better than anyone around me.
Do I screw up YES. Everyone screws up.. I keep my eyes on the road ahead
Just my thoughts on learning and KNowing the material that needs to be known for a gig.. Im one of those guys that if need be . i also know everyone else's part too..
I do a guitar show in town when I am home.
If i am one of the the bass players on the show that weekend. I may have to play with 4 or 5 different guest guitar players over the weekend.
We might get one rehearsal.
One year we got NO rehearsal.
I had to do a 40 minute set with George Lynch from Dokken.
He started Mr Scary.. No rehearsals.
We had to do our homework. It's not that it is hard. But there are changes that need to be on.
Then the next day it's Ted Nugent ( which is very easy to know those parts) or guitar great/ grammy winner Redd Volkert later that afternoon.
Wedding gigs that I play are more difficult. Wider variety of styles and tunes .And the leader DEMANDS that EVERYONE have it together when we get together,, since he is paying for the rehearsal room.
So its NOT just high profile gigs at all. For me its Weddings too.. It's doing OUR homework so everyone can move forward and onto the next song .
I was brought up in NYC with HEAVY competition around me. If you don't rise to the top fast, someone will be on your tail to grab it from you in a second. It made me better and competitive to be able to get the more high profile stuff.
For me, If i'm gonna do something. Im gonna do it better than anyone around me.
Do I screw up YES. Everyone screws up.. I keep my eyes on the road ahead
I don't know how to answer that. The only thing I can tell you is that none of the 4 songs we went over had any definite feeling. I could hear the other guys just kind of plowing along, looking for something to grab onto. Like I said, I never brought it up. I don't think I ever would on a 'first time - let's see what sticks' rehearsal. It all felt pretty loose. In fact, the rehearsal kind of fell apart. Everyone started talking and we went over some other tunes that only 50% of us knew well enough to make it sound good. Then, we called it quits because the snow was starting to pile up on the street, and everyone wanted to make it home alive. It felt like the snow saved us from going any further, to be honest. At that point I wanted to leave anyway.
I'll let you all know how it works out.
Different ways of working suit different situations. If you are the house band or a guest band reproducing a previous recording, the artistic decisions have been made, often by someone else, and your job is normally to reproduce them.
To offer one example of a band who took a different approach and achieved a certain level of success, the Beatles would turn up in the studio to hear the song John and Paul had written, create the arrangement, and record on the fly. They might try multiple arrangements to find the best one. Famously they edited two recordings of Strawberry Fields, done in different keys at different tempos, together to creat the released track, and a whole alternate version of Let It Be was mastered in 2002 because McCartney was that keen to see his original vision realised.
I can do it your way (though not at your level). If I commit to do note for note, I can walk in with a complete transcription or play the dots put in front of me. But I usually nail the feel and key rhythms and let the rest happen organically, because that is usually how the bands I play with work. I’ve been corrected once too often for producing what was on the record when the guy who hired me wanted something else
I’d advise OP to raise the specific issues with the drummer. “Could you use this kick pattern?” for example. Keep it about the music.
Don't know if this has been suggested yet, or if you have tried it. Lay out completely and let everyone else play through the song all the way. Repeat until it sounds good. Add bass part. Refine as necessary. If anyone thinks you are being passive-aggressive, remind them that's how McCartney did it (poetic license here, he laid down a part while recording but returned at night to nail the finished parts).
svtb15
Inactive
- Mar 22, 2004
- 13,004
- 4,741
- Disclosures
- I play it all. Whatever works for the gig. Q+
The Beatle thing that you pointed out is more about writing and CREATING unheard material. Arranging material..
I think the OP is talking about Cover material that we have all heard hundreds of times on the radio etc. Its very different..
I think the OP is talking about Cover material that we have all heard hundreds of times on the radio etc. Its very different..
Different ways of working suit different situations. If you are the house band or a guest band reproducing a previous recording, the artistic decisions have been made, often by someone else, and your job is normally to reproduce them.
To offer one example of a band who took a different approach and achieved a certain level of success, the Beatles would turn up in the studio to hear the song John and Paul had written, create the arrangement, and record on the fly. They might try multiple arrangements to find the best one. Famously they edited two recordings of Strawberry Fields, done in different keys at different tempos, together to creat the released track, and a whole alternate version of Let It Be was mastered in 2002 because McCartney was that keen to see his original vision realised.
I can do it your way (though not at your level). If I commit to do note for note, I can walk in with a complete transcription or play the dots put in front of me. But I usually nail the feel and key rhythms and let the rest happen organically, because that is usually how the bands I play with work. I’ve been corrected once two often for producing what was on the record when the guy who hired me wanted something else
I’d advise OP to raise the specific issues with the drummer. “Could you use this kick pattern?” for example. Keep it about the music.
Until the band has agreed as to their definition of "cover" - there is no playing "correctly".
It's hard to score a test without a rubric.
