Help me understand this mentality

[merseymale]

I was wondering if people would help me understand this mentality. This was inspired by a thread going that contained a passing comment about a drummer who was recording an album and then just stopped answering texts email and phone calls-- leaving the album unfinished and the band wondering, and finally, folding.

This is the mentality I don't get -- and I've seen it multiple times

1. A student of mine accepted the position of President of a student organization. He functioned for about 6 months, and then stopped answering all phone calls, texts and emails from myself (his adviser/mentor), and the dedicated, top notch students on his executive team. We eventually removed him as president after several months of silence. We advised him after suitable warnings via email and text to look for the email about his assumed resignation. He did not respond to phone messages. No response to text or email either.

About three months later, he called me out of the blue, mentioned nothing about his radio silence, and then asked me for a reference for his resume.

When I asked him about the lack of communication after accepting such a high profile position, he didn't have an answer I could quote. It was general whitewash. There was no emergency, nothing, just a request for a reference. When I indicated I couldn't give a reference due to the way he abandoned a high profile, professional position, he argued the point, indicating I knew about his other quality work and leadership in classes and could recommend on that. I held my ground and indicated that his abandonment of his position, without communication or reasonable explanation made it impossible for me to be a positive reference. I also indicated I was surprised he was asking me for a reference after that. It was a polite conversation, but one that floored me.

2. I spent about 2 hours helping a social media consultant with questions about how to break into my profession, and gave her an opportunity to speak to my class and get some classroom experience. She took the help and opportunities.

As apparent reciprocation, she agreed to help me promote a project involving social media (Today's Jazz Book). We had two phone meetings, and made mutual assignments. She didn't show up for the third meeting, and has simply stopped answering phone and texts. I know she's getting them, as they aren't coming back undeliverable, but she has simply chosen not to respond.

A. If anyone has done this -- simply stopped communicating with otherwise reasonable people who have made a joint commitment to a project, musical or otherwise, I am willing to listen, without criticism. I want to understand the thought processes involved in simply stopping all communication when a commitment has been made.

B. Also, is there anything others can do to pre-empt this kind of response to a project when you sign on to a commitment of some kind, musical, or otherwise, to prevent this kind of hard landing to a project?

I see this as a younger generation thing, as both were in their mid to late 20's. I don't see it from older people unless there is a technology hiccup, lost phone, deleted email account, viruses, lost phone contact lists or other valid reasons.

Help to understand the thought process is welcome. I have trouble fathoming it.

For many years I’ve wanted to discuss this kind of thing but where would you discuss it?!

Imagine my surprise when I see it on, pretty much, my favourite forum…?!!

Also I can say this happens to me so many many times!

Although it is not confined, in my cases, with “the younger generation“ it got to the point where, like the OP, I too am totally floored by all this..
the only time I’ve mentioned this kinda thing is when I was at a party and got chatting to someone and it turned out she was a social mental health expert And I asked her about this and said “I know this sounds like I’m crazy but have you ever heard of such a phenomena?”

Unfortunately she had no clue what I was talking about but she said something very helpful and saved me from ripping my hair out the next time (!)
She said “If I could give you the answer; the real correct answer and there was no doubt in your mind or that of anyone else’s that my answer was an exact explanation as to why people do these things what would you DO with that information?

How is it going to help you to find out why people do this WHEN you know that they do do it and by its very nature there is no way of getting an explanation from them?”

For myself, all I can say is that in one fell swoop she stopped me torturing myself over this (extreme words from me, there, I know but let me assure you I could fill a forum with the amount of times this happens to me!!)

It’s very important to recognise that this isn’t a case Of people being unreliable. Nor is it a case of miscommunication. It isn’t even a case of avoidance behaviour, (I don’t think..?)

The “symptoms” are that every indication is given that some future commitment is a given and that there is no problem foreseeable. Then at some future point, usually very soon after the ball-is-in-thier-court, there is a kind of “radio silence“ Followed, after a much later time, A complete oblivious attitude as to any form of problem or misconception whatsoever at all!

I now just file this between the same heading as UFOs; the Loch Ness monster; yetis & the like and the Law of Gravity...it’s just one of those things that sometimes definitely exist and sometimes definitely don’t and there’s no real way of pointing at them and saying “look there it is!“

 

[merseymale]

I think it’s because some people don’t like confrontation, or are ashamed of accountability. It is, personally, easier for some to ignore, than to resign. They know it’s a D-bag move, but it’s easier to ignore and pretend, than face the music, or own up to disinterest.

T H I S really might be The Answer

 

[merseymale]

Can anyone explain the follow-up mentality of asking for a reference after ghosting me and the entire organization he was supposed to be leading in Case #1 above? Is ghosting simply considered standard practice?

I can see it as an outgrowth of online interaction. For example, on Talkbass, all you have to do is ignore someone. Same on social media, just block their account -- end of the problem with no confrontation. That seems like a reasonable explanation -- misplacement of online interaction with arms-length relationships to face to face, more personal relationships.

I don't look at it as geezers beating up on the old generation though -- I view it as geezers trying to understand the underlying reasoning. It can help mitigate harsh judgments.

I don’t think its a generational thing at all
Maybe “ghosting“ IS but the aftermath of completely not knowing what the hell they’ve done seems to know no boundaries IMHO

 

[PauFerro]

She said “If I could give you the answer; the real correct answer and there was no doubt in your mind or that of anyone else that my answer was an exact explanation as to why people do these things what would you DO with that information?

I guess I'm not that impressed with her answer. It sounds like she was sidestepping the question, or perhaps didn't know. Rather than admit she didn't know, she turned it back on you.

For me, my answer would be "in various leadership capacities, before I give people a position, opportunity, or priviledge that helps them, I would consider the cause of ghosting and address it in the onboarding process. Whatever I say would be tempered by what you tell me, including any extenuating reasons for why it might happen --that deserve compassion. And if the information you give didn't inform my onboarding process, your answer would at least help me show more empathy for people who resort to ghosting. So, are you able to answer my question?"

If she said no, I would ask why.

 

[Cliff Colton]

The young people ruined everything. We sacrificed to put cellphones into their hands from the day they were born and they repay us with air pollution from Tru-Oil, counterfeit Rickenbackers everywhere, bad rock n’ roll music, and no Woodstock this year. You know there was a time when a man with a Gibson Grabber commanded respect but not anymore.

I’m aware of this one young fella who was trying to be different, he wanted to work hard and get ahead, but his mentor let him down and wouldn’t write him a letter. So I guess we’ll just have to wait for the next generation to come along to clean up this mess. Hopefully the internet will be gone by then.

 

[eglacias]

lets take an inner training approach, take these quotes from here:
...OP, your example #1 reminds me of a student I had worked with for a while. He unfortunately had improperly medicated issues with depression and anxiety,...

...One thing is for sure, after determining if there are extenuating circumstances, I will continue holding these people accountable so perhaps, they eventually see the wisdom of being responsible in their communication....

now: if i want to actually take an interest in the other, despite their shortcomings, and see what i can do as a loving person in my human community, then i by no means am there only to talk about how their 'bad behaviour' inconveniences me and my own needs: there is almost exclusively talk here about serving *our* needs instead of the other ('heres what i'd do to continue with my 'correct' life without that erroneous individual, and how i can ensure that i turn these sick ones away as quickly as possible)

when i do that, they remain a menace to society at large. who do i send them away to? others to suffer. as it goes downhill further, they wonder our city streets totally insane, and the people just pass them by like theirs no one there. this king of pathology is breaking in with violence on society, and until we face them (because they cant face us) it will continue to worsen

if the question was honest, this would be a discussion about understanding the other, which includes a care for their pathology. the only fruitful goal for understanding the other is to help them as well and not yourself only!

without that, your interest is only in getting them to serve *your* interest, which is the same thing their doing quite often: their not going to respond or get better.

 

[thetragichero]

Just another entitled dumbpoopie who has been lead to believe there are no consequences in life, bad decisions don't matter because EVERYONE gets a participation trophy. I'd have done the exact same thing, no way I would put my name and reputation on the line for such a pathetic individual.

so this one is always fun to run across: I know add a five year old playing tee ball, I didn't care about any trophies. all I wanted to do was play baseball, scratch my crotch, and maybe shove a wad of bubblegum in my cheek to pretend I was Lenny Dykstra. the parents and grandparents who were the adults in charge... maybe they had designs on us being all stars, I don't know. funny how we somehow get mocked for it though, ain't it?

We live in a time where things like hard work, attitude, follow through and basic human courtesy don't matter to an entire generation (there are exceptions of course).

yadda yadda

I am at the point where I am feeling glad that I will likely be dead before they're able to completely destroy America.

funny you blame the media and yet apparently that is where you've received your spin on the "millennials" (born between 1981 and 1996).
truth is myself and everyone I know in my age range are highly educated, hard-working, and completely pissed off that we're swimming in debt, lack health insurance, job security, etc
if you wanna be mad, how about be mad at the folks who gambled (and lost) all the prisons. be mad at the companies who have taken whole industries off us soil so they could make more profit. be mad at the whole healthcare industry forcing us to walk around sick and dying because we can't afford to go to the doctor or necessary medications
or be a crotchety old man and be mad at us. whatever man

 

[merseymale]

I considered that but decided against it for a few reasons. First, I didn't get so far as to ask why he needed the reference. Sometimes they simply need it for a Career Development Course portfolio. If that was the case, I question if he would use it if it had a huge blight dragged across it, even if true. He wouldn't want his professor of that course to see it. Therefore, I'd be out the time to write a reference letter that would never be used. Sometimes they need it for their own records and submission with resumes, in which case he would have seen the negative comments and would have not used it.

Another reason against it was that I wasn't out to hurt the guy -- I wanted to help him see the effect of his past decisions. For me, it was a teachable moment where he could see the results of his actions, and possibly learn from them. If learning occurred from our convo, my refusal would be beneficial to him in the short run and the long-run. To give a confidential, negative reference letter that he never saw could compromise his ability to get a job. Plus he'd learn nothing. This wasn't something I wanted.

Third, I figured he would find someone to paint him favorably regardless of whether I gave him the negative letter or not. If I didn't give him a letter, he'd find someone, and if I gave him a negative letter, he'd toss it aside and find someone who WOULD give him positivity -- provided he knew the contents.

So, the best thing was a verbal discussion about why he'd disqualified himself from a letter of reference.

“...For me, it was a teachable moment where he could see the results of his actions, and possibly learn from them...” OH NO IT AIN’T !!

 

[John j]

T H I S really might be The Answer

But that's the result of censorship that's increased over the years.
Europe in Germany and Britain people are being arrested for speech violations.
And here in the states are similar repercussions for stating your point of view if it differs from the narrative.
You can be fired for it even though it has done no one any harm.
The victim class are irresponsible because they know they can always blame it on somebody else if they fail.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

This thread needs to be moved to the Humor section because you guys make me laugh. How can you blame young people for all the problems in the world, then demand their unmitigated respect which you clearly don’t deserve? Joan Rivers couldn’t make this stuff up.

At a minimum, please change the title to Help Me Understand My Own Mentality because I’ve learned nothing in this thread about Millennials.

Well, I haven’t read the whole thread, but to assert that ghosting isn’t a common millennial phenomenon would be factually wrong. It’s true that there are douchebags in all generations, ghosting is just the signature millennial expression of douchebaggery. Trying to look for a “deeper truth” than that would probably be misguided, but the OP’s question is valid, it is weird and tough to deal with ghosting when you’re not previously aware of it.

 

[Stumbo]

The victim class are irresponsible because they know they can always blame it on somebody else if they fail.

Edumacate me about who is in this victim class?

 

[merseymale]

I guess I'm not that impressed with her answer. It sounds like she was sidestepping the question, or perhaps didn't know. Rather than admit she didn't know, she turned it back on you.

For me, my answer would be "in various leadership capacities, before I give people a position, opportunity, or priviledge that helps them, I would consider the cause of ghosting and address it in the onboarding process. Whatever I say would be tempered by what you tell me, including any extenuating reasons for why it might happen --that deserve compassion. And if the information you give didn't inform my onboarding process, your answer would at least help me show more empathy for people who resort to ghosting. So, are you able to answer my question?"

If she said no, I would ask why.

Well that’s kind of…
Well… You have a point and I must admit that
But, if you don’t mind me making a gross assumption here, you sound a LOT like I sounded before I spoke to her (admittedly this ‘expert’ was at a party not in any kind of official or medical capacity or something like that!) And UNTIL THEN I did feel really unsure about situations involving others and on whether I could depend on them, etc

You see, previously I spotted people who were flaky; I understood people when they were not yet ready for a situation but this kind of thing is something different it’s almost Like camouflage or something and, although I seemed jokey in my 1st response to your OP I really have to admit I was getting very obsessed about this kind of thing
About this phenomena for want of a better word?

Don’t get me wrong, if a better understanding of it could enable me to detect this sooner or mitigate the problems for me and other people and being prepared for it then I could see the point of pursuing all this to find out the meaning of it all But I Gotta admit that this gals somewhat glib response, maybe, was like a weight off my mind

You see I don’t think I was being victimised or that these people are doing this to trick me and the other people who were drawn into it all; we were all collateral damage, as it were, what REALLY bugged me out, Personally, was this aftermath thing where they just turn up and don’t blame it on anything in particular or on me or anyone else their attitude is entirely that there was no problem whatsoever at all and nobody was guilty of anything!

It was that that was making me overcautious

What I can say is I don’t have the problem licked yet because the problem isn’t with me (honest!) nor with you -for that matter and that I’m not a trained psychologist who can help someone and even if I was that someone would have to want help in which case they'd have to at least recognise something has happened that was wrong and this they certainly do not! So, anyhoo, my life is just a lot easier now making everyone perfectly clear as to what is expected of them; expected of me; expected of the whole situation and given them ample chance to pull out/deadlines/etc & rolling with the, Say, one in four chance that they’ll disappear and just giving them the finger and nothing else in those one in four of those chances that they reappear again whistling happily with hands in pockets and a halo above the head; skipping along; shrugging shoulders & seemingly not knowing that anything is happened

YMMV

 

[merseymale]

Well, I haven’t read the whole thread, but to assert that ghosting isn’t a common millennial phenomenon would be factually wrong. It’s true that there are douchebags in all generations, ghosting is just the signature millennial expression of douchebaggery. Trying to look for a “deeper truth” than that would probably be misguided, but the OP’s question is valid, it is weird and tough to deal with ghosting when you’re not previously aware of it.

+1 but IS It ghosting…?

As far as I’m aware, what is being described is ghosting but when the person then doing the ghosting suddenly reappears and acts as if nothing has happened?!

 

[merseymale]

The young people ruined everything. We sacrificed to put cellphones into their hands from the day they were born and they repay us with air pollution from Tru-Oil, counterfeit Rickenbackers everywhere, bad rock n’ roll music, and no Woodstock this year. You know there was a time when a man with a Gibson Grabber commanded respect but not anymore.

I’m aware of this one young fella who was trying to be different, he wanted to work hard and get ahead, but his mentor let him down and wouldn’t write him a letter. So I guess we’ll just have to wait for the next generation to come along to clean up this mess. Hopefully the internet will be gone by then.

You have GOT to do Stand-Up!

 

[merseymale]

lets take an inner training approach, take these quotes from here:
...OP, your example #1 reminds me of a student I had worked with for a while. He unfortunately had improperly medicated issues with depression and anxiety,...

...One thing is for sure, after determining if there are extenuating circumstances, I will continue holding these people accountable so perhaps, they eventually see the wisdom of being responsible in their communication....

now: if i want to actually take an interest in the other, despite their shortcomings, and see what i can do as a loving person in my human community, then i by no means am there only to talk about how their 'bad behaviour' inconveniences me and my own needs: there is almost exclusively talk here about serving *our* needs instead of the other ('heres what i'd do to continue with my 'correct' life without that erroneous individual, and how i can ensure that i turn these sick ones away as quickly as possible)

when i do that, they remain a menace to society at large. who do i send them away to? others to suffer. as it goes downhill further, they wonder our city streets totally insane, and the people just pass them by like theirs no one there. this king of pathology is breaking in with violence on society, and until we face them (because they cant face us) it will continue to worsen

if the question was honest, this would be a discussion about understanding the other, which includes a care for their pathology. the only fruitful goal for understanding the other is to help them as well and not yourself only!

without that, your interest is only in getting them to serve *your* interest, which is the same thing their doing quite often: their not going to respond or get better.

Please PLEASE don’t take this the wrong way but I’m not entirely in agreement with you

It is a very moral and altruistic & dare I say, courageous attitude you’re suggesting but believe you me I have tried to get to the bottom of this in individual cases and theres simply is no bottom!

But what I can have an affect on, IMO, is how this continues to affect ME & I feel I am entitled (SORRY!) to shrug it off and turn my back on the problem (and yes I understand it also means I’m turning my back on the person too) because the alternative is undermining to me personally and at the same time having no affect whatsoever at all on the person I am, admittedly, choosing to blame

Remember, as far as they’re concerned, nothing has happened at all!

it’s not that something bad has happened that they’re not able to communicate -they are often at great pains to point out that nothing has happened untoward- they don’t often make excuses of any description or point fingers in any way for the perplexing thing is they genuinely want to explain nothing other than there is nothing to explain! And more often or not this tends to be when they want something from me... coincidence?

Now, yes, if I can do something to help them out of that delusion and in one small way help society, et cetera, then I would do it it’s just that I am, somewhat presumptuously, assuming the OP is like I was and slowly driving himself nuts by analysing the unanalyseable as I once did
Ghosting is a good word for it because it’s like trying to seive fog!

 

[Stumbo]

+1 but IS It ghosting…?

As far as I’m aware, what is being described is ghosting but when the person then doing the ghosting suddenly reappears and acts as if nothing has happened?!

Who ya gonna call? Ghost Busters! I ain't afraid of no ghost.

 

[merseymale]

When everyone within a group speaks his mind and expect his desire to become reality, cohesion goes down the drain.
Discret, sacrificial personalities are essential to the well being of the group and way, way underrated.
If you ever have to manage a team you know that you can't only surround yourself with competitive winners and creative minds.

You need at least 1/3rd of people who accept to gently follow the rules, staying in the background, not putting their own desires first. A bassist should understand this kind of thing.
In most traditional societies it's a support role that was given to women by default. Nowadays it should be shared equally and praised as an essential cog in the machine.The only reason you think this way is because competition has been drilled into your head, from the day you saw your first football game and superhero cartoon.
It's not supported by any science. All we have going this way is a set of tools to help us being successful within society, such as personal development guides.
Stepsiding problems is an efficient, although anarchic and unpopular way to solve issues. You see it in nature every day, shallow bahaviors tend to lead to better survivors.

This seems really clear and helpful to me but what about The situation the OP is describing where after the “ghosting“ the person comes back and pretends nothing untoward has happened?

It seems to me that such a person could be a type of ‘industrial psychopath’ or something and one who sabotages in such a way, if I’m Reading this right, is not helpful on any team?

 

[merseymale]

I love that we're on a musicians forum and you're disparaging the "misunderstood flakes".

Great band name!!

 

[John j]

Edumacate me about who is in this victim class?

No need to. You already know who it is.
Nice try, though.

 

[merseymale]

Uhhhh...can't mentor a ghost.

I know of a teacher who had a Phantom Pregnancy....



(Thanks I’m here all week)