Help me understand this mentality

[PauFerro]

I guess I would have taken the route of writing the letter and just being honest about what the student did. Essentially he looked promising for reasons X,Y and Z but in the end he proved unreliable and only responded to our repeated attempts to contact him by asking for this reference and gave no reason for his lack of communication or resignation.

Its honest and accurate and now it gives the folks looking for the reference a warning. If they chose to ignore the warning then that is on them.

Refusing to give a reference just means that the student will find someone else to paint him in a more favorable light.

I considered that but decided against it for a few reasons. First, I didn't get so far as to ask why he needed the reference. Sometimes they simply need it for a Career Development Course portfolio. If that was the case, I question if he would use it if it had a huge blight dragged across it, even if true. He wouldn't want his professor of that course to see it. Therefore, I'd be out the time to write a reference letter that would never be used. Sometimes they need it for their own records and submission with resumes, in which case he would have seen the negative comments and would have not used it.

Another reason against it was that I wasn't out to hurt the guy -- I wanted to help him see the effect of his past decisions. For me, it was a teachable moment where he could see the results of his actions, and possibly learn from them. If learning occurred from our convo, my refusal would be beneficial to him in the short run and the long-run. To give a confidential, negative reference letter that he never saw could compromise his ability to get a job. Plus he'd learn nothing. This wasn't something I wanted.

Third, I figured he would find someone to paint him favorably regardless of whether I gave him the negative letter or not. If I didn't give him a letter, he'd find someone, and if I gave him a negative letter, he'd toss it aside and find someone who WOULD give him positivity -- provided he knew the contents.

So, the best thing was a verbal discussion about why he'd disqualified himself from a letter of reference.

 

[FunkHead]

I was wondering if people would help me understand this mentality. This was inspired by a thread going that contained a passing comment about a drummer who was recording an album and then just stopped answering texts email and phone calls-- leaving the album unfinished and the band wondering, and finally, folding.

This is the mentality I don't get -- and I've seen it multiple times

1. A student of mine accepted the position of President of a student organization. He functioned for about 6 months, and then stopped answering all phone calls, texts and emails from myself (his adviser/mentor), and the dedicated, top notch students on his executive team. We eventually removed him as president after several months of silence. We advised him after suitable warnings via email and text to look for the email about his assumed resignation. He did not respond to phone messages. No response to text or email either.

About three months later, he called me out of the blue, mentioned nothing about his radio silence, and then asked me for a reference for his resume.

When I asked him about the lack of communication after accepting such a high profile position, he didn't have an answer I could quote. It was general whitewash. There was no emergency, nothing, just a request for a reference. When I indicated I couldn't give a reference due to the way he abandoned a high profile, professional position, he argued the point, indicating I knew about his other quality work and leadership in classes and could recommend on that. I held my ground and indicated that his abandonment of his position, without communication or reasonable explanation made it impossible for me to be a positive reference. I also indicated I was surprised he was asking me for a reference after that. It was a polite conversation, but one that floored me.

2. I spent about 2 hours helping a social media consultant with questions about how to break into my profession, and gave her an opportunity to speak to my class and get some classroom experience. She took the help and opportunities.

As apparent reciprocation, she agreed to help me promote a project involving social media (Today's Jazz Book). We had two phone meetings, and made mutual assignments. She didn't show up for the third meeting, and has simply stopped answering phone and texts. I know she's getting them, as they aren't coming back undeliverable, but she has simply chosen not to respond.

A. If anyone has done this -- simply stopped communicating with otherwise reasonable people who have made a joint commitment to a project, musical or otherwise, I am willing to listen, without criticism. I want to understand the thought processes involved in simply stopping all communication when a commitment has been made.

B. Also, is there anything others can do to pre-empt this kind of response to a project when you sign on to a commitment of some kind, musical, or otherwise, to prevent this kind of hard landing to a project?

I see this as a younger generation thing, as both were in their mid to late 20's. I don't see it from older people unless there is a technology hiccup, lost phone, deleted email account, viruses, lost phone contact lists or other valid reasons.

Help to understand the thought process is welcome. I have trouble fathoming it.

I believe the way it works is that you were supposed to Ghost him back. That way he never even got to ask you for a reference. See? Problem solved! You're welcome. <--- That emoji means that I am being sarcastic and don't actually believe what I have typed.

I must say, in all seriousness, you should have given him a reference. You simply should have stated the truth and essentially gave him a horrible reference.

 

[PauFerro]

I believe the way it works is that you were supposed to Ghost him back. That way he never even got to ask you for a reference. See? Problem solved! You're welcome. <--- That emoji means that I am being sarcastic and don't actually believe what I have typed.

I must say, in all seriousness, you should have given him a reference. You simply should have stated the truth and essentially gave him a horrible reference.

I gave a few reasons why I didn't above...so I won't repeat them. Strangely, I did consider ghosting his request. But it occurred to me it would only reinforce any possible notion that ghosting is an acceptable way to communicate with people. I know you were being sarcastic, by the way...but it's true, I considered it for a moment. AS they say, what goes around comes around Didn't seem wise in this case...

 

[bassdude51]

I think it’s because some people don’t like confrontation, or are ashamed of accountability. It is, personally, easier for some to ignore, than to resign. They know it’s a D-bag move, but it’s easier to ignore and pretend, than face the music, or own up to disinterest.

Yep! Nailed it! This the reason why many folks don't directly resign or explain themselves.

I've noticed since I got my very first cell phone in Oct 2018 that strange to me, people would rather text than make a phone call.

It's like they are too chicken **it to talk in person. They can't deal with "one on one".

Strange world!

Link Removed

 

[PauFerro]

Reminds me of that Rules of Engagement episode called "Shy Dial". It's an app for your phone (fictitious, I believe) that makes your message go straight to voice mail. The show, which is about committed relationships, was exploring how you tell your spouse about things when you don't want an interactive conversation. You turn on Shy Dial, give your message via voicemail, and it's over.

Ghosting is an even more passive version of Shy Dial.

I just did a search, and guess what, there is an app called SlyDial that apparently does this...

Ringless Voicemail Messaging App : Slydial

I think their tagline should be "Ghosting for people with a conscience"

 

[80jazz]

And you got this information about the entire baby-boomer generation from where? LOL... I was actually raised by two GREAT, loving people who had the brains to tell us NO more often than not, taught us manners (and watched us like hawks to make sure we used them), made us work from the moment we were legally able to, made us fight our own battles, and expected us to go out into the world on our own as soon as we were out of college. And they never laid a hand on us, either. There was no "abuse"--there was just GOOD PARENTING. Sorry if you and others missed out...

As the child of baby-boomers, I had at least 1 grandparent who was NOT cold, emotionally unavailable, or abusive.

 

[EddiePlaysBass]

Interesting topic. I am someone who quickly considers people "a friend" and subsequently, in recent times have been ghosted a few times. In one occasion I really did not see it coming, but have now taken steps to make sure that the person who did it, will not be able to contact me even if they wanted to.

Alternatively, I kept in touch with a singer long after the band ended, and recently sent het another mail to see how life was etc. I got a reply back saying she'd thought it over and decided she didn't want to keep in touch anymore, since the band was long gone (and she's not singing anymore - which is such a shame). As much as that hurt, it was actually refreshing and I let her know that I understood completely. It provided closure and I liked it.

 

[Gooney]

I agree. It’s probably just avoiding conflict.

Hopefully they’ll grow up and learn to be more courteous and responsible.

 

[Bassmann79]

This is the mentality I don't get -- and I've seen it multiple times

1. A student of mine accepted the position of President of a student organization. He functioned for about 6 months, and then stopped answering all phone calls, texts and emails from myself (his adviser/mentor), and the dedicated, top notch students on his executive team. We eventually removed him as president after several months of silence. We advised him after suitable warnings via email and text to look for the email about his assumed resignation. He did not respond to phone messages. No response to text or email either.

About three months later, he called me out of the blue, mentioned nothing about his radio silence, and then asked me for a reference for his resume.

When I asked him about the lack of communication after accepting such a high profile position, he didn't have an answer I could quote. It was general whitewash. There was no emergency, nothing, just a request for a reference. When I indicated I couldn't give a reference due to the way he abandoned a high profile, professional position, he argued the point, indicating I knew about his other quality work and leadership in classes and could recommend on that. I held my ground and indicated that his abandonment of his position, without communication or reasonable explanation made it impossible for me to be a positive reference. I also indicated I was surprised he was asking me for a reference after that. It was a polite conversation, but one that floored me.

Just another entitled dumbpoopie who has been lead to believe there are no consequences in life, bad decisions don't matter because EVERYONE gets a participation trophy. I'd have done the exact same thing, no way I would put my name and reputation on the line for such a pathetic individual.

 

[PauFerro]

Just another entitled dumbpoopie who has been lead to believe there are no consequences in life, bad decisions don't matter because EVERYONE gets a participation trophy. I'd have done the exact same thing, no way I would put my name and reputation on the line for such a pathetic individual.

I like the part in bold. For the part in italics, the guy actually has a lot of potential. He has a leader personna, and has leadership presence. He's intelligent, and in my last few classes, he was pretty conscientious. I view him as a work in progress however. Someone who can transform this aspect of his character. My hope is that he will learn from the experience and next time he considers ghosting, he'll remember his experience with me. It's a pretty big deal when one of your professors won't give you a reference after a pretty long history together. At our school, the students tend to really respect us, so this would have likely been a blow to his day, given his personality. I don't take pleasure in making him feel badly, but one has hope that the "unstated", or sometimes called "hidden curriculum" also has an impact on students.

 

[armelind]

To me it seems like a "run and hide" defense. (I made it up) but it seems if they avoid it long enough, like any other responsibility their parents gave them (maybe), the responsible one would eventually do it themselves, and the situation is solved. If you don't acknowledge you did wrong, there was no wrong....right?
If it were me, I would maybe back off for a time to gather my thoughts, but I would communicate that maybe i wasn't the right person for the job.
Maybe it's just plain fear? Fear of the confrontation of being told they messed up. If they don't hear it, they didn't mess up.
I don't know. I raised my child to do what they were asked to do or get punished. Life doesn't work only on their terms.

 

[Thomas Devenney]

I was wondering if people would help me understand this mentality. This was inspired by a thread going that contained a passing comment about a drummer who was recording an album and then just stopped answering texts email and phone calls-- leaving the album unfinished and the band wondering, and finally, folding.

This is the mentality I don't get -- and I've seen it multiple times

1. A student of mine accepted the position of President of a student organization. He functioned for about 6 months, and then stopped answering all phone calls, texts and emails from myself (his adviser/mentor), and the dedicated, top notch students on his executive team. We eventually removed him as president after several months of silence. We advised him after suitable warnings via email and text to look for the email about his assumed resignation. He did not respond to phone messages. No response to text or email either.

About three months later, he called me out of the blue, mentioned nothing about his radio silence, and then asked me for a reference for his resume.

When I asked him about the lack of communication after accepting such a high profile position, he didn't have an answer I could quote. It was general whitewash. There was no emergency, nothing, just a request for a reference. When I indicated I couldn't give a reference due to the way he abandoned a high profile, professional position, he argued the point, indicating I knew about his other quality work and leadership in classes and could recommend on that. I held my ground and indicated that his abandonment of his position, without communication or reasonable explanation made it impossible for me to be a positive reference. I also indicated I was surprised he was asking me for a reference after that. It was a polite conversation, but one that floored me.

2. I spent about 2 hours helping a social media consultant with questions about how to break into my profession, and gave her an opportunity to speak to my class and get some classroom experience. She took the help and opportunities.

As apparent reciprocation, she agreed to help me promote a project involving social media (Today's Jazz Book). We had two phone meetings, and made mutual assignments. She didn't show up for the third meeting, and has simply stopped answering phone and texts. I know she's getting them, as they aren't coming back undeliverable, but she has simply chosen not to respond.

A. If anyone has done this -- simply stopped communicating with otherwise reasonable people who have made a joint commitment to a project, musical or otherwise, I am willing to listen, without criticism. I want to understand the thought processes involved in simply stopping all communication when a commitment has been made.

B. Also, is there anything others can do to pre-empt this kind of response to a project when you sign on to a commitment of some kind, musical, or otherwise, to prevent this kind of hard landing to a project?

I see this as a younger generation thing, as both were in their mid to late 20's. I don't see it from older people unless there is a technology hiccup, lost phone, deleted email account, viruses, lost phone contact lists or other valid reasons.

Help to understand the thought process is welcome. I have trouble fathoming it.

Depression can have this effect on some people.

 

[ayseven]

Passive aggressivity seems to be the norm now. I had it twice with musicians I played with, the last couple of years. Sadly I gave up tryin
g to find other people to play with. My computer never does this to me.

 

[Jon McBass]

Depression can have this effect on some people.

Certainly it can be a result of depression. And anxiety. I can empathize, having a sibling who suffers from those conditions. To me it's reminiscent of agoraphobia, some kind of fear of being around people.

But I also think it has to do with the digital age and resulting human disconnect. There's a different communication/social interaction norm than before. Don't get me started about how politics have been changed by the powerful influence of Facebook and Twitter. Designed by neuropsychologists to addict the brain. We're in the "post-truth" era.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Can anyone explain the follow-up mentality of asking for a reference after ghosting me and the entire organization he was supposed to be leading in Case #1 above? Is ghosting simply considered standard practice?

I can see it as an outgrowth of online interaction. For example, on Talkbass, all you have to do is ignore someone. Same on social media, just block their account -- end of the problem with no confrontation. That seems like a reasonable explanation -- misplacement of online interaction with arms-length relationships to face to face, more personal relationships.

I don't look at it as geezers beating up on the old generation though -- I view it as geezers trying to understand the underlying reasoning. It can help mitigate harsh judgments.

The mentality is they’re douchey and narcissistic, and don’t care that they are not treating you with kindness. It can also be a power play, again, douchebag central. I work with a lot of millennials in my line of work, and it’s definitely frustrating at times; it does make it easy to pick the right clients though. Ghosting is SOP for douchey millennials, I’ve learned my lesson the hard way, as we all will. IMO you did the right thing by refusing to coddle the ghost. I got ghosted by a couple after verbally agreeing to terms on wedding music. After a month or 2 they came back, with no acknowledgment of ghosting me, asking if I was still available. I stupidly said yes, as it turns out they were just using me as a bargaining chip to hire someone else cheaper, which they did. Double rejection never feels good, but that’s a heck of a learning experience! My advice is, do not feed the ghosts, they’ve given you all the red flag you need to pass on them, and it’s very satisfying when you get to the point of your career when you can afford to do so.

I’m not just going to bash millennials, all generations have obnoxious markers and red flags to avoid. Gen x and y often aren’t afraid to cry poor falsely, baby boomers can be pushy and presumptuous, etc., luckily, they’re doing you a favor by waving those red flags. It’s tough when building a business and you have to serve anyone you can, and some difficult clients do still slip through my screening once or twice a year, but fortunately there are many kind and honest people out there. I’ve had more fun and enjoyment doing my current wedding/corporate party business than I have in any other capacity in entertainment, it’s 99% positive interactions with the clients who I end up working with, but learning to see red flags, *and use them,* is a huge part of being fulfilled in life and work.

 

[Pilgrim]

In response to the OP, there are plenty of flakes in the world. Pour milk on them, they'd crackle: Flakes.

Some people have no sense of personal responsibility. They make commitments and fail to meet them. They don't do what they say they will do.

In some cases, they simply are irresponsible. In other cases, they tell people what they think others want to hear, then ignore the commitment. In others, they initially do what they said they would, then one day they just dump it.

And others make any promise they think will get them an advantage, then ignore and even deny their promises as soon as it's to their advantage to do so.

When you meet them, as soon as you can identify them, don't do business with them, don't depend on them, don't trust them.

 

[Cliff Colton]

This thread needs to be moved to the Humor section because you guys make me laugh. How can you blame young people for all the problems in the world, then demand their unmitigated respect which you clearly don’t deserve? Joan Rivers couldn’t make this stuff up.

At a minimum, please change the title to Help Me Understand My Own Mentality because I’ve learned nothing in this thread about Millennials.

 

[Former Rogues]

I skimmed a few responses, but won't lie; I didn't read all 11 pages.

Interesting topic and ideas going around. Seen this happen through various jobs and also with two former band members in two different bands. In one case, the bassist (I was a guitarist in that band) just didn't see much to take seriously in the band...and he was right. We folded and I moved to Europe so we just tried to keep it fun whether he was at practice or not.

The other guy though...textbook case of what you are talking about. Things are good, he has a lot of completed songs, we get some gigs and then he disappears. No explaination. Ever. Years later I heard he had some business issues and more or less cut off all of his friends. No idea where any of that came from.

I got a feeling like we live in a time where if instant gratification isn't filled or people realize that working for something isn't always easy, fun or enjoyable, people would rather quit than see something through to fruition. Work is called work exactly because it isn't happy-fun-playtime. Maybe that is a hard reality fof some people, especially when there is an extreme pressure to excel, succeed AND be happy all the time.

Maybe I am just a backwater, crotchey 30 something year old fart. What do I know. Maybe some people prefer to avoid conflict and confrontation. Maybe some people have extreme anxiety. Maybe others set high expectations or expect things to come quick and easy. Maybe others just want positions where they feel power over others.

My advice, when it comes to work, don't sweat it, knuckle down and just do your share. Be brutally honest to those coworkers, but in a level and non-aggressive way. When it comes to music, don't wait around for them. You could be making so much great stuff and you'll just sacrifice time writing, jamming and having fun if you are always waiting on someone to show.

 

[gordongeekstad]

It is an age thing, although it's not because they are young.

We live in a time where things like hard work, attitude, follow through and basic human courtesy don't matter to an entire generation (there are exceptions of course).

In short, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and the internet in general have resulted in great harm America and Americans great. Human interaction is not the preferred method of communication any longer.

I will not inject politics here but a large part of this is the media. They do not report news, they manufacture narratives. Truth literally does not matter to a large portion of the populace. I think this goes hand in hand with honesty among individuals. It is a learned trait.

I am at the point where I am feeling glad that I will likely be dead before they're able to completely destroy America.

 

[doggo]

I agree. I work in IT and I've watched the Internet grow from gopher, the Mosaic browser, to now. And I tell my friends that the Internet is destroying the society we grew up with. I'm literally retiring early 'cause I just can't deal anymore.