How much music theory do you really need to know?

[Koshchei]

I tell people the amount of theory you need to know -at a minimum - is what you need to get the job done. And that depends on what type of music you play and how good your ear is.

If you know what to play by ear, then music theory isnt critical. Nice to have, but not critical. Not too many have this talent, but I know of at least two musicians that dont even know the names of the chords and they kill it every time.

If you are going to do jazz, more theory is definitely better - (knowledge and ear recognition of scales, chords, their interrelationship, cadences,etc). Should know all the modes of the major scale cold and know where to use them, plus the Minor Pentatonic and their modes. Some of the Minor modesMelodic minor, diminished, augmented, etc..

If you are going to do 3 chord blues, you probably could get by knowing the notes in the 7 chords and the pentatonic minor scale plus a knowledge of of major vs minor , 6 vs b7, etc. Maybe the relative minor and the 251 cadence. You dont need to know what the Em7#9 chord is by name, but you need to be able to cover it. Knowing a dorian scale wouldnt hurt.

All the above is a great simplification and I personally like music theory and use it in my playing.

I would be interested in your opinions.

It's well-known that mental representation has a linguistic structure. As a correlation to this, the richer a person's vocabulary, the more nuanced and sophisticated their thinking is likely to be.

The same applies to musical theory. If a person is happy not being able to communicate in anything more than a superficial way, then by all means, they can stay in their lane. But they should never be confused by others as being any kind of authority. I get irked when people who suck at their instrument and have no ability to express themselves with it are given column inches where they celebrate their illiteracy as if knowing less somehow lets them know more.

 

[Geogio]

I have a Nuts and Bolts knowledge of Music Theory. I know drum rudiments and I've read guitar theory for dummies which was helpful.

My wife took a lot of theory in college and she explains things fairly well and she's pretty good when it comes to walking up and down the keyboard in a theoretical fashion but she can't rock.

 

[SLO Surfer]

My favorite thing about music is that there’s something for everyone.

 

[pbass2]

The more you know the further you’ll go.

I become frustrated when working with people who don’t really know basic music theory. You don’t have to be able to transcribe Jaco solos but being able to read even at a beginner level goes a long way.

You don't even need to be able to read notation. You can have a very deep grasp of harmony, melody and rhythm and communicate it with others with similar knowledge without being a reader. Heck, ask Pino!
Of course, I'm not advocating deliberately not learning to read if you have the interest and bandwidth - it will only make you more versatile.

 

[Kael]

It'd be nice to know all the notes in a given chord, but when in doubt, play the big letter.

I and V for support target notes, iii and vii for solo lines.

That covers about 85% of crap I've seen on an average gig.

 

[Curtbass]

Really none is necessary, but it certainly helps.

 

[HeadWind]

I still have a long way to go to understanding music theory. I get modes and I can play modes but there applciation in day to day music still defeats me.

Different modes fit different chords. You probably won't use all 7, but Ionian fits over a major tonic (e.g. E), whereas the mixolydian works over the dominant (e.g. B7). You will run into minor keys for the ii and the iv of the scale (generally, no rule is hard and fast) (e.g F#m and C#m sticking with a tonic of E major) and then you can use either the Aeolian (natural minor) or the Dorian. The Dorian often works better with the harmony.

All songs are different so none of this is hard and fast. There are plenty of songs where you use the mixolydian on the tonic. But knowing what works helps you in crafting bass lines.

It also helps in breaking out of a rut where you use the same patterns all the time. For example, if you know a Dorian minor is what is needed in a certain place, you also know that that you can play around with an Ionian scale one step down and have the same scale tones.

 

[perfektspace6]

Depends on how good you are without knowing much or any theory. I envy those that can play anything by ear very quickly and don't need to know any theory. I don't know how that brain works.

 

[sonic 7]

If you only aspire to play covers and you have a good ear then you can get by fine without any knowledge of theory. In any other situation the more you know the better you’ll be. In addition to enhancing your own creativity ,a knowledge of theory is important to communicate amongst other musicians .

 

[mambo4]

I get modes and I can play modes but there application in day to day music still defeats me.

"applying" Modes tends to derail many who are trying to learn theory
Learn their names, construction, and sound.
But ignore "applying" modes until you command more useful theory like functional harmony.

the "real" way to apply modes is the same as for any theory thingamajig:
to imagine a sound you want and play the theory thingamajig that makes that sound

 

[lokikallas]

You need to know enough to communicate in a common language with your fellow band mates.
For example; Saying "come in on the and of 4" and getting a blank look is not fun.

 

[devnulljp]

Well Richard, this isn't as simple as dunking plastic in ice water or quantum physics.

 

[Rayjay]

A personal observation.....

I've played with quite a few cats that come to mind, who are very naturally great players. They seem to be cases of people who found interest in specific things, and learned those things, but didn't learn everything from the ground up from a personal teacher.

Even though there are things they can pull off flawlessly, there are holes in their playing. They don't know how to count (the hit is on the ee of 4...). They lose the song form. They don't know how to find the key signatures. It's difficult to describe things to them. They play the wrong chords. They can't comp. They can't play instrumental versions of songs without getting lost or missing verses or whole song sections. They can't read charts.

HERE'S THE KICKER:

Because they don't have the formal training, they don't hear the mistakes they are making!! They can't hear the holes in their playing.

I can't help but wonder how many people there are out there just like that, who are prideful in their lack of education, think they have it all figured out, fool a lot of people, but when a real player walks in the room they can see right through the faking. It's the musical equivalent of speaking a language improperly, with bad grammar.

One thing all these guys I've played with have in common: They HATE being asked to learn new material on the spot, and being the only person in the room that doesn't get something, and they really really hate it when a bass player knows something they do not!!

 

[IamGroot]

I had a math professor in university who remarked that he did not understand people who had no intellectual curiosity, referring to those who would make no effort to learn more than the minimum they felt they needed. His thinking comes to mind with each recycle of these “music theory” threads.

Good Point.

Most folks kinda know some math formulas.

Math people understand the proofs and how the general case was derived. And find it very satisfying.

 

[IamGroot]

It's well-known that mental representation has a linguistic structure. As a correlation to this, the richer a person's vocabulary, the more nuanced and sophisticated their thinking is likely to be.

The same applies to musical theory. If a person is happy not being able to communicate in anything more than a superficial way, then by all means, they can stay in their lane. But they should never be confused by others as being any kind of authority. I get irked when people who suck at their instrument and have no ability to express themselves with it are given column inches where they celebrate their illiteracy as if knowing less somehow lets them know more.

Can I like this twice?

 

[IamGroot]

Well Richard, this isn't as simple as dunking plastic in ice water or quantum physics. As any bongo player knows, a pre conceived idea can take predominance in the conscious mind and take the place of feel and inspiration and can be a subtracting factor. In physics lab we call this Analysis-Paralysis. If analysis comes shortly AFTER feel and inspiration, then we have no problem. After many years the two can merge into one, but it may not involve words in the bongo player's mind, just an integrated knowledge.

Richard's philosphy of knowledge, how things work, and how to analyze problems was very influential on me then and now. He is not the best text book writer, though.

Not many people know this, but Richard started out as a math major. He was largely self taught and was somewhat untraditional in his thinking. The premiere math competition of his day was the Putnam. He finished 4 hours early and supposedly had a perfect score where the average is about 10%. He switched to Physics becasue most math majors couldnt get good jobs.

 

[micguy]

If you know what to play by ear, then music theory isnt critical. Nice to have, but not critical. Not too many have this talent, but I know of at least two musicians that dont even know the names of the chords and they kill it every time.

I have this "talent", though I wouldn't call it that - I got it through a lot of hard work; it certainly wasn't bestowed upon me at birth. In the heat of a gig, I have no time to think about what to play - I have to know, and that makes a good ear far more valuable to me on a gig than knowing a lot of theory.

I do know a couple levels of theory - I know some (certainly not all) of what musician's call theory, plus I know the actual Science and psychoacoustics behind that theory. That stuff is helpful for figuring out parts beforehand - "what might work here?", but once I'm at a gig, I agree with Billy Sheehan: If you're thinkin', you're stinkin'

 

[pbass2]

Depends on how good you are without knowing much or any theory. I envy those that can play anything by ear very quickly and don't need to know any theory. I don't know how that brain works.

The grass is always greener though. I learned theory--harmony, melody, rhythm - all by ear, not by reading.
So, while I can sit at the piano and play a bunch of complex chords and know what they're called, what the notes are, write out chord charts or numbers charts for a band, etc, if you plop a piece of sheet music in front of me, fuggetaboutit. I very much regret not putting in the time to learn to read notation. I've dabbled with it, and since I never really "needed" it, I never stuck with it.

 

[matty1039]

I had a math professor in university who remarked that he did not understand people who had no intellectual curiosity, referring to those who would make no effort to learn more than the minimum they felt they needed. His thinking comes to mind with each recycle of these “music theory” threads.

All this sounds like something my math professor used to say: "You are better off being wrong but knowing why you are wrong, than being right and not knowing why you are right."

 

[legalbass]

All this sounds like something my math professor used to say: "You are better off being wrong but knowing why you are wrong, than being right and not knowing why you are right."

I appreciate this sentiment. Guessing your way through life works until it doesn't.

Not many people know this, but Richard started out as a meth major.

!