How we should speak to guitarists.....

[2112]

Don't. Start your bands with saxophonists and pianists instead of guitarists. If a song or two absolutely needs guitar, either a sax or keys player can probably learn the part in a week or two.

My dad played a rock covers gig back in the 70's and 80's that lined up as keys, sax, drums & vocals. No guitar OR bass. They were one of the hottest acts around town for years.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

What key signature do you use if the song starts in G major then modulates down a half step?

You can use Q++ for all I care, the point was if the key between F and G is generally a sharps key or a flats key. It's generally a sharps key. Doesn't mean it's always that if specific circumstances indicate otherwise. And the idea that you can confuse someone by telling them to play in Gb rather than F# is lame, much like assuming bassists don't know the difference between a major and a minor key because they only play roots and fifths.

 

[Michedelic]

In music notation, the key between F and G is a sharps key. The key is F# because the changed notes from the natural notes are sharps. It's a sharps key rather than a flats key because there are fewer changed notes that way.

But if you're in a key that already contains the note F then you can't have F#, so you use the note Gb...

Theory hijack follows:
...or a flat key.

...or flats.

Actually, F# has 6 sharps, and Gb has 6 flats. So, really, the same number of changes either way.

This is the only accurate statement in your post, but not for the reason you think.

The flat vs. sharp thing is interesting to me. Why, dremadream99 do you say ficelles is wrong?

FWIW (and I started on and still play guitar), I think of the keys basically as:
A Bb B C C# D Eb E F F# G G#.

But where there's a reason to call, say, F# by the name Gb, then I do - for example, a descending modulation ...

An ascending might then cause Eb to be called D#.

IME, in everyday use, I encounter F# chords all of the time, as well as Eb chords. I never encounter Gb or D# chords by those names.

Mebbe I need to play more jazz?

I've always suspected that the note F resented being renamed E# in the key of F#, and the note B resented being renamed Cb in the key of Gb. Those temperamental little notes!

What key signature do you use if the song starts in G major then modulates down a half step?

That single modulation, I would just call it F#.

It would more likely be Gb where there was something like Bb A Ab G Gb F E Eb going on.

On the other hand, ascending, I would say, Eb E F F# G G# A Bb.

Could be incorrect, certainly inconsistent, but that's how I do it, me.

You can use Q++ for all I care, the point was if the key between F and G is generally a sharps key or a flats key. It's generally a sharps key. Doesn't mean it's always that if specific circumstances indicate otherwise. And the idea that you can confuse someone by telling them to play in Gb rather than F# is lame, much like assuming bassists don't know the difference between a major and a minor key because they only play roots and fifths.

Let me save some time for you all... just say “second fret”

 

[wizerd]

Just send a text

 

[fretlessbass]

I avoided it altogether, when I started a band with sax, bass and drums--and nothing else--about 10 years ago.
With the right players and imaginative arrangements, you can have:
Intensity, without a typical guitarist's volume; consistency, without a typical keyboard player's lack of availability....
And did I mention, without said keyboard player stepping all over your basslines--a subject already well- covered in another thread.

A lot of fun, but admittedly, harder to book...

 

[dBChad]

Things I actually say to guitar players:

"I'm really drowning you out, does your amp have a midrange knob? Crank those mids."

"How about If I hold the groove in this section so you can play a lead section?"

"Can you really not hear when you're out of tune?"

"Those power chords sound cool and all, but can we try it again with the minor third on the first chord, the major seventh on the second chord, and a suspended second on the third? Root/fifth playing is my turf!"

 

[Robscott]

Nah you have to be more subtle than that with guitarists, something like "will you shut the **** up!". Won't make any difference but it makes you feel better for about 20 seconds

 

[Mr_Moo]

What's up with that anyways? I've played with a few in Eb and they'd insist it's D#. You almost *never* see this in standard notation, but then again a vast majority of guitar players can't read music either

Guitarists seem to pick up an understanding of music theory (and practice) from other guitarists, which exists at anywhere from 60 to 180 degrees from standard music theory.

 

[socialleper]

Speak calmly and use small words.

 

[Mr_Moo]

In music notation, the key between F and G is a sharps key. The key is F# because the changed notes from the natural notes are sharps. It's a sharps key rather than a flats key because there are fewer changed notes that way.

But if you're in a key that already contains the note F then you can't have F#, so you use the note Gb...

I'm not following you. There are six changed notes either way:

F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#

Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb

And either way there is one changed note which is enharmonic to a natural. E# or Cb, respectively.

What am I missing?

 

[Slevage]

You can use Q++ for all I care, the point was if the key between F and G is generally a sharps key or a flats key. It's generally a sharps key. Doesn't mean it's always that if specific circumstances indicate otherwise. And the idea that you can confuse someone by telling them to play in Gb rather than F# is lame, much like assuming bassists don't know the difference between a major and a minor key because they only play roots and fifths.

Generally this is an incorrect statement.
I recently played an arrangement in Cb.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

Generally this is an incorrect statement.
I recently played an arrangement in Cb.

Generally, your responses are just argumentative and confrontational. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[Slevage]

Generally, your responses are just argumentative and confrontational. Welcome to my ignore list.

Truthful and accurate too.

 

[Mr_Moo]

What key signature do you use if the song starts in G major then modulates down a half step?

Is it modulating down for a key change, or just going to the F#m chord? Because F#m is in the key of G major.

 

[dreamadream99]

Most guitarists I know have serious trouble with flat keys.

Beginner and intermediate guitar music is in sharp keys, to take advantage of the open strings; beginner and intermediate school band music is written in flat keys, to take advantage of the open native key of brass instruments.

If they don’t progress to an expert level, guitarists get very little exposure to flat keys (unless they join the school band); and, if school band students don’t progress to an expert level, they get very little exposure to sharp keys (unless they play in the string orchestra).

At the expert level, all keys are fair game.

 

[Slevage]

Is it modulating down for a key change, or just going to the F#m chord? Because F#m is in the key of G major.

Key modulation

 

[Slevage]

Beginner and intermediate guitar music is in sharp keys, to take advantage of the open strings; beginner and intermediate school band music is written in flat keys, to take advantage of the open native key of brass instruments.

If they don’t progress to an expert level, guitarists get very little exposure to flat keys (unless they join the school band); and, if school band students don’t progress to an expert level, they get very little exposure to sharp keys (unless they play in the string orchestra).

At the expert level, all keys are fair game.

There is a progression to getting there.
Community bands help bridge the gap.

 

[dreamadream99]

Why, dremadream99 do you say ficelles is wrong?

Because ficelles asserts that the key between F and G is a sharps key, when, in fact, it can be notated in F# or Gb—both are valid and legitimate keys.

 

[SAlcott]

Words of two syllables or less usually work.

 

[dreamadream99]

Welcome to my ignore list.

If you keep ignoring everyone who disagrees with you, you’ll never see accurate music theory posts again.