Mandantory Drug Tests

[basstotheface]

Really? Fascist? Show me where I (or anybody) should have their cell phone bill paid for by someone else. I'm not saying she should be drug tested, I'm saying if she's got 3 cell phones (each one with the full data plan, so that's what 100 bucks a pop) can't prioritize and has shouldn't be looking for other people to pay her bills...also, why should she get a 3 bedroom house rented for her, and just her alone paid for by other people? I'm going to guess you kind of glossed over that, because otherwise that would mean that you are quite possibly either in the 5th grade, or just very dumb...or maybe you are my foster kids mom, in which case, what's up Jessica?

I'm not relating that comment to the situation you told us about. I'm speaking more in general terms. This probably is a better way to state what I am *trying* to say. In general, people on welfare should be allowed to have cell phones, I don't think there should be a rule against it, particularly because it could be for their job or children.

 

[Kitsapbass]

Again, I could get behind it if she HAD her kids. She doesn't. I do. I saw this thread, and after all, it's about reforming how the government passes out money. In my state, they had an expose because people were going to the casino on the taxpayer money...and then, amazingly, 5 minutes later, my Governor was talking about how our state's deficit is getting worse...Of course it is, because you didn't put in a default to not let them get the welfare out where they can waste it. Once it was brought up, the casinos paid for the fix and it was installed in less then a week.

I understand your viewpoint, believe it or not, and I know basically you think drug testing is a bad idea, I know I don't like drug testing...that being said, the point is, it's not their money - if you want their money, you should have to jump through the hoops to get it - just like I had to, and still have to keep my job and earn a paycheck. Welfare is basically their paycheck, it's not manna from the sky, they're supposed to do stuff to earn it right? They're not expected to pay it back, are they? So why shouldn't they have to jump through the hoops like everybody else does?

 

[basstotheface]

Again, I could get behind it if she HAD her kids. She doesn't. I do. I saw this thread, and after all, it's about reforming how the government passes out money. In my state, they had an expose because people were going to the casino on the taxpayer money...and then, amazingly, 5 minutes later, my Governor was talking about how our state's deficit is getting worse...Of course it is, because you didn't put in a default to not let them get the welfare out where they can waste it. Once it was brought up, the casinos paid for the fix and it was installed in less then a week.

I understand your viewpoint, believe it or not, and I know basically you think drug testing is a bad idea, I know I don't like drug testing...that being said, the point is, it's not their money - if you want their money, you should have to jump through the hoops to get it - just like I had to, and still have to keep my job and earn a paycheck. Welfare is basically their paycheck, it's not manna from the sky, they're supposed to do stuff to earn it right? They're not expected to pay it back, are they? So why shouldn't they have to jump through the hoops like everybody else does?

Again, I'm not relating anything I say to your situation, because that women seems horrible and stuff like that needs to be fixed, I'm 100% behind limiting what you can use welfare for.

The reason I find jumping through hoops unacceptable is because most of these people are already jumping through hoops as is. They have jobs and children like everyone else, just not enough money to live. They are everyone elses equal, people seem to forget that. Imagine you get fired, as you posted before you have kids, being a good father you would probably go get a job or try your best to get a job, say you do succeed but can only work for minimum wage, so you work a ton of hours just to pay mortgage, still not cutting it, you need to feed your kids, so you apply for welfare, but the trick is you have 8 hours of community service you have to perform, you also have to take 2 hours a week to go get drug tested, so at minimum wage, 10 hours is equal to stealing 72.50 from you and your family.

 

[Kitsapbass]

Again, I'm not relating anything I say to your situation, because that women seems horrible and stuff like that needs to be fixed, I'm 100% behind limiting what you can use welfare for.

The reason I find jumping through hoops unacceptable is because most of these people are already jumping through hoops as is. They have jobs and children like everyone else, just not enough money to live. They are everyone elses equal, people seem to forget that. Imagine you get fired, as you posted before you have kids, being a good father you would probably go get a job or try your best to get a job, say you do succeed but can only work for minimum wage, so you work a ton of hours just to pay mortgage, still not cutting it, you need to feed your kids, so you apply for welfare, but the trick is you have 8 hours of community service you have to perform, you also have to take 2 hours a week to go get drug tested, so at minimum wage, 10 hours is equal to stealing 72.50 from you and your family.

Okay, then. The biggest flaw with that is that I know a trade, actually several trades. With the jobs that I know, I won't be working for minimum wage, but let's just say I am for the sake of argument...using again your example, I am receiving benefits to supplement my income...isn't that the trade off? I have to go to the thing for 2 hours a week for which I get so much money? Okay, so for that amount of time, that's how much I'm earning then. It's a trade off. If I don't want the money, I don't have to go. If you're saying I need that money, and that's the deal, I have to decide is it worth it for me to get that money, and if it is, I buck up and do it, because it helps me feed, house and clothe me and my family. Jumping through hoops is part of life, and if all I had to do to get a certain amount of money is to pass a piss test, well heck sign me up. It seems like what you're saying is that no matter what, these people earned that money. They haven't until they jump through all the hoops and gotten that check.

 

[basstotheface]

Okay, then. The biggest flaw with that is that I know a trade, actually several trades. With the jobs that I know, I won't be working for minimum wage, but let's just say I am for the sake of argument...using again your example, I am receiving benefits to supplement my income...isn't that the trade off? I have to go to the thing for 2 hours a week for which I get so much money? Okay, so for that amount of time, that's how much I'm earning then. It's a trade off. If I don't want the money, I don't have to go. If you're saying I need that money, and that's the deal, I have to decide is it worth it for me to get that money, and if it is, I buck up and do it, because it helps me feed, house and clothe me and my family. Jumping through hoops is part of life, and if all I had to do to get a certain amount of money is to pass a piss test, well heck sign me up. It seems like what you're saying is that no matter what, these people earned that money. They haven't until they jump through all the hoops and gotten that check.

Again, these are all hypotheticals. No offense to you, as I don't know if you would ever have to work for minimum wage. Either way why should you have to choose? You shouldn't have to worry about feeding your family in a country like America.

As to Sonic Assasin, I think this is a case of all men are created equal but some are more equal than others.

 

[Kitsapbass]

Again, these are all hypotheticals. No offense to you, as I don't know if you would ever have to work for minimum wage. Either way why should you have to choose? You shouldn't have to worry about feeding your family in a country like America.

As to Sonic Assasin, I think this is a case of all men are created equal but some are more equal than others.

I was merely trying to put myself into the scenario of how you described. As far as choosing, choose what? My question is, if you want the money, you jump through the hoops...if you don't want to jump through the hoops, why should we give you the money?

As far as worrying about feeding your family, dude - should have thought about that before you had a family. If you can't support them, heck - I'd be doing some SERIOUS thinking about making better life decisions, maybe more schooling. I'm not saying there shouldn't be absolutely basic sustenance, but if you can't support your kids, put your kids in foster care and get your crap together so you CAN support your family. I'm guessing by the statement to Sonic Assassin, you're looking at it like a moral right to have other people support you (and that's a generic you - I don't know your history or story and this isn't a personal attack, I was homeless for 6 months until I learned how to take care of myself and it was a hard lesson; but one I learned in a hurry) you have the right to persue happiness, but before you can do that you have to be able to survive. If what it takes is a piss test so you can pay your rent, take the piss test, get your check and pay your rent, man. Don't act like you've been violated, you just had everybody else give you a gift. Acting like you have is basically like getting a car for free but complaining about what color it is...

 

[Hawaii Islander]

I guess some people missed that whole RECESSION almost as bad as the GREAT DEPRESSION we've been going through these passed couple of years or so. Guess that doesn't matter to them though. JUST SAYIN.

 

[basstotheface]

I was merely trying to put myself into the scenario of how you described. As far as choosing, choose what? My question is, if you want the money, you jump through the hoops...if you don't want to jump through the hoops, why should we give you the money?

As far as worrying about feeding your family, dude - should have thought about that before you had a family. If you can't support them, heck - I'd be doing some SERIOUS thinking about making better life decisions, maybe more schooling. I'm not saying there shouldn't be absolutely basic sustenance, but if you can't support your kids, put your kids in foster care and get your crap together so you CAN support your family. I'm guessing by the statement to Sonic Assassin, you're looking at it like a moral right to have other people support you (and that's a generic you - I don't know your history or story and this isn't a personal attack, I was homeless for 6 months until I learned how to take care of myself and it was a hard lesson; but one I learned in a hurry) you have the right to persue happiness, but before you can do that you have to be able to survive. If what it takes is a piss test so you can pay your rent, take the piss test, get your check and pay your rent, man. Don't act like you've been violated, you just had everybody else give you a gift. Acting like you have is basically like getting a car for free but complaining about what color it is...

No moral right to money or gifts, just a right to being able to use what is already there without people questioning it.

 

[Kitsapbass]

No moral right to money or gifts, just a right to being able to use what is already there without people questioning it.

But here's the point I'm trying to make: the money's running out. Using your logic, I guess it would be okay to stay at your mom & dad's until your 45, because you're already there, all your furnitures there and you know how the microwave works. I'm like the Dad saying, "Son, it's time to move out."

 

[Kitsapbass]

I guess some people missed that whole RECESSION almost as bad as the GREAT DEPRESSION we've been going through these passed couple of years or so. Guess that doesn't matter to them though. JUST SAYIN.

Hey man, if you haven't learned the working world has changed by now, it's time to start weaning yourself off the herb...

 

[basstotheface]

But here's the point I'm trying to make: the money's running out. Using your logic, I guess it would be okay to stay at your mom & dad's until your 45, because you're already there, all your furnitures there and you know how the microwave works. I'm like the Dad saying, "Son, it's time to move out."

By already there I meant a part of our system.



System=government.

 

[Kitsapbass]

By already there I meant a part of our system.



System=government.

I know what you meant. I'm just saying we can no longer afford that system...like the guy that was making 95K a year, has a BMW, just got laid off and found out unemployments going to cover about half his rent. He needs to change his lifestyle, and that's the facts.

 

[Hawaii Islander]

Hey man, if you haven't learned the working world has changed by now, it's time to start weaning yourself off the herb...

I don't smoke. Do you? Don't throw accustations so freely pal! You never know when that type of nonsense will come back at you. :scowl:

 

[Kitsapbass]

I don't smoke. Do you? Don't throw accustations so freely pal! You never know when that type of nonsense will come back at you. :scowl:

Sorry sir, I was merely making a connotation implied by the thread itself. I do not know or care if you imbibe, with a substance personally I feel should be legal and subject to taxation.

That being said, why are you accusing me of not being based in reality, and not aware of our country's economic status...because after all, if you think our country can sustain it's spending behaviours, you must be on Fantasy Island.

 

[Hawaii Islander]

Sorry sir, I was merely making a connotation implied by the thread itself. I do not know or care if you imbibe, with a substance personally I feel should be legal and subject to taxation.

That being said, why are you accusing me of not being based in reality, and not aware of our country's economic status...because after all, if you think our country can sustain it's spending behaviours, you must be on Fantasy Island.

I'm on the Big Island BTW.

Somehow there is a false belief that things will stay bad economically and employmentwise, when indicators show that progress is being made, albeit slowly. The point being, we don't have to push more hardship on those already going through bad times in order to reach a better, more stable economy. The poor (including working poor) are not gobbling up the majority of our nation's financial resources. You will have to look elsewhere to find those that are responsible for such abuses and waste. Peace!

 

[sonic assassin]

because you are trying to make a grey area black and white. you can't just say "because you fail a drug test, we won't give you gov't money" But you fail to look inside their life, as well as failing to look at the repercussions. Sure, your deadbeat friends are taking advantage of the system, but failing a drug test doesn't imply that they are using that money to buy drugs.

i CAN say that.

and i dont care about their personal situation. we can all boo hoo ourselves into so money if thats the case. but im a man. with dignity. and i wont. and i dont think others should get to cheat the system and break the law and STILL get handouts.

if that means they starve to death, thats entirely their problem. we need a better system of population control anyway. medical science is keeping people alive too long.

 

[Floyd Eye]

i CAN say that.

and i dont care about their personal situation. we can all boo hoo ourselves into so money if thats the case. but im a man. with dignity. and i wont. and i dont think others should get to cheat the system and break the law and STILL get handouts.

if that means they starve to death, thats entirely their problem. we need a better system of population control anyway. medical science is keeping people alive too long.

This.

 

[Kitsapbass]

I'm on the Big Island BTW.

Somehow there is a false belief that things will stay bad economically and employmentwise, when indicators show that progress is being made, albeit slowly. The point being, we don't have to push more hardship on those already going through bad times in order to reach a better, more stable economy. The poor (including working poor) are not gobbling up the majority of our nation's financial resources. You will have to look elsewhere to find those that are responsible for such abuses and waste. Peace!

I wasn't referring to the working poor being the biggest drain. I'm referring to the boomers retiring, the fact that a LOT of companies are still out-sourcing, and there is STILL a LOT of people out of work. Social Security is getting bigger, Medicare is getting bigger, and businesses are contracting for a higher profit margin for their stockholders. I'm arguing that if we as a society don't want to support using welfare dollars for this (or more precisely, what I was saying earlier, people that abuse the system), and want to put something, hell - anything - in place to try to start to stem the bleeding...sign me up.

 

[sonic assassin]

The more I read from you (and a few others) on this topic, the more I think you either have no clue as to what addiction really is, or don't know as much about addiction as you think you do. Your posts all have one thing in common that makes me suspect this. They all contain common misconceptions about drug addicts/addiction.

Drug addiction is a brain disease identified by components of physical and psychological dependence.

People with an addiction do not have control over what they are doing, taking or using

So yes, though the initial choice to do drugs does fall on the user, the choice to become an addict does not.

BTW, helping others that can't help themselves does not make us a country of wimps/saps/wusses. What it does, is makes us a nation of compassionate people. Compassion is not a weakness.

yawn.

ive been on the victim end of substance abuse my entire life. dont lecture me.

disease? right. get that weak **** out of here.

they cant control themselves. such is why i want them wiped off the earth. that feeling of not being in 100% control of ones own thoughts and actions is my greatest fear in the world. that is sickening to me. to the point that i dont take opiates as pain killers. i left my wisdom teeth in to avoid being put under and hopped up on pain pills.

you're telling me that addiction ISNT the user's fault? wow.

helping those that are disabled doesnt make us wusses. bending over backwards to help those that voluntarily destroyed their own lives does.

and yes, compassion is weakness. if there was no compassion, the earth would be filled with nothing but strong creatures. we'd have killed everyone else with no remorse. it is in practice EXACTLY weakness. it makes us human. sometimes its good, assuming its projected at the right people. and like ive said before, addicts arent people.

 

[Kitsapbass]

yawn.

ive been on the victim end of substance abuse my entire life. dont lecture me.

disease? right. get that weak **** out of here.

they cant control themselves. such is why i want them wiped off the earth. that feeling of not being in 100% control of ones own thoughts and actions is my greatest fear in the world. that is sickening to me. to the point that i dont take opiates as pain killers. i left my wisdom teeth in to avoid being put under and hopped up on pain pills.

you're telling me that addiction ISNT the user's fault? wow.

helping those that are disabled doesnt make us wusses. bending over backwards to help those that voluntarily destroyed their own lives does.

and yes, compassion is weakness. if there was no compassion, the earth would be filled with nothing but strong creatures. we'd have killed everyone else with no remorse. it is in practice EXACTLY weakness. it makes us human. sometimes its good, assuming its projected at the right people. and like ive said before, addicts arent people.

Dude - you are HARDCORE. And I'm not really referring to it as a compliment. But, heck, they're your beliefs, it's a free country.