Neck Dive (Poll)

[InhumanResource]

My assertion is there are far too many neck heavy basses that manufacturers put out for sale. As such, it's a blatant rip-off that takes our money for a badly designed instrument.

I'm sure there are clever engineers/designers working for manufacturers that can solve this issue before finalizing production runs. But it seems some bass makers don't care enough to do so.

I've had enough of this garbage. Recently passed up two new (not used) basses in a music store I would've liked. Settled on a third choice that wasn't neck heavy.

Anyway, to support my assertion, I need numbers as to how many of you do or don't like neck heavy basses.

I'll be pegging on neck heavy manufacturers as I find them and will need numbers as support if the numbers are overwhelmingly "don't like neck dive".

I'm aware of the multitude of workarounds suggested in this forum, and web, to correct neck dive. No need to repeat them here. My entire point is we shouldn't have to be working around and settling for deficient products that are new from the manufacturers.

I voted “doesn’t matter.” I’m not sure if I ever even noticed a particular bass having “neck dive.”

 

[smtp4me]

Can you reveal what you bought, or do you feel it would sway your poll? I've been playing for 50+ years and I have owned and played dozens of basses and just never experienced neck dive so bad that I couldn't play the instrument.

I understand. I think the OP's point is that we should not have any neck dive, instead of settling for an acceptable amount. And... reducing weight at the one end of the neck would also reduce overall weight, which is not a bad thing.

 

[SLO Surfer]

…it depends on how much neck dive and other ergonomic impacts of the specific instrument, so carrots.

 

[Ostie]

Hootenanny strap button to the rescue!

I’m joking of course. HSBs are pretty ridiculous, except as a badge of honor for the vintage P bass owner. Although they prove that Leo was aware of the problem.

 

[manchego_eggo]

My 'aha' moment was a birdsong cortobass - perfect ergonomics on a strap, sitting on a thigh, or sitting like a classical guitar. A 31'' scale has less lever arm, but good design was also a big part of it. That one, and a landing SS too. Incredibly, the Landing has zero dive in any playing situation, despite being a telecaster-style body. I couldn't play anything else after those. I foolishly sold the Landing about ten years ago, thinking bass was behind me

It kills me to see short scales with dive, and there are a lot of them - physics is on your side, and a big part of being a SS is being more ergonomic.

I think short scaled are actually more susceptible to balance based beck dive issues. Everything is usually shrunk down on short scale, so most things weigh less because there is physically less neck and less body. However, hardware is always the same weight and size, so the same tuners will add relatively more weight and cause more neck dive on short scales.

 

[themickster]

My assertion is there are far too many neck heavy basses that manufacturers put out for sale. As such, it's a blatant rip-off that takes our money for a badly designed instrument.

I'm sure there are clever engineers/designers working for manufacturers that can solve this issue before finalizing production runs. But it seems some bass makers don't care enough to do so.

I've had enough of this garbage. Recently passed up two new (not used) basses in a music store I would've liked. Settled on a third choice that wasn't neck heavy.

Anyway, to support my assertion, I need numbers as to how many of you do or don't like neck heavy basses.

I'll be pegging on neck heavy manufacturers as I find them and will need numbers as support if the numbers are overwhelmingly "don't like neck dive".

I'm aware of the multitude of workarounds suggested in this forum, and web, to correct neck dive. No need to repeat them here. My entire point is we shouldn't have to be working around and settling for deficient products that are new from the manufacturers.

I had a 5er with dive. It lessened how much I liked playing it.

 

[eddododo]

I maybe don’t mind instruments that have a slight bias towards the neck that is easily stopped by the friction of a strap, but anything beyond (and maybe including) that is ridiculous.

It is avoidable, it doesn’t make sense, and conveniently most of the cases where it’s a matter of form over function, they happen to also be ugly instruments from an era I have no love for.



All that said, if you want to buy it, and they want to make it…


My right forearm contact on the body is generally enough to correct it on most instruments, and I have zero interest in a Violin bass or Tbird or Flying V lol, so I guess it works itself out.

 

[ics1974]

neck dive is a deal breaker for me. I would rather have a heavy bass with no neck dive then a light bass with neck dive.

 

[eddododo]

I can overlook at lot of defects in an instrument, but I’m very picky about neckdive.

I once owned a beautiful Roscoe SKB3006 that had bad neckdive. It caused serious cramps in my fretting hand’s forearm.

Yes, I did try different straps, including wide straps.

For me, neckdive is a dealbreaker.

Wow that’s pretty surprising, considering how ergonomic and playable Roscoes are.. guess that goes to show you that it really is a balancing act.

 

[Killing Floor]

Engineering and design are not the same thing.

While that statement is essentially true, in the context of this thread neck dive is is an aesthetic consequence. That’s the point I was making. Basses and other instruments suffer from neck dive often. And that issue is caused by aesthetic design considerations trumping engineering.

 

[ravelax]

I'm not terribly bothered by it. My main bass now is a Thunderbird, an Epiphone Vintage Pro. It's nice and light, so with a thin and slick nylon strap, it dives, but with a wide leather strap, it does not. Ergonomically, it's perfect for me in all other aspects, and resting my plucking hand on the upper waist area of the body keeps neck dive in check even with a nylon strap. My shortscale semi-hollow Shaftesbury 3263 is a much worse diver, even with a wide strap. Still doesn't bother me too much.

 

[G On Bass]

I absolutely will not own a bass to play that has neck dive under any circumstances.

 

[Danny O Danny]

I wouldn't call it a "blatant rip-off" but I would call it lazy to just make bass versions of existing guitar designs (I'm looking at you Gibson) without considering player comfort (neck dive in particular, but also weight). At least along the way third parties stepped in and developed lightweight tuners to help mitigate the problem. But, yeah, one of the first things I look at on a bass is where the upper horn strap button is in relation to the 12th fret.

 

[lug]

Neck dive is a far bigger issue than bass weight to me.

(flees forum)

 

[InhumanResource]

How exactly do we test for neckdive? Is it balance while standing, balance while sitting etc? Balance on the heel of a knife in a vacuum? It’s not something I ever notice and am curious what y’all are seeing.

 

[micguy]

Neck dive is the equivalent of a car that falls over if you don't stand there and hold it upright - it's a fundamental design error that indicates sloppy work. With CAD tools nowadays, the center of gravity calculation is trivial to do, and you can easily account for different wood densities, etc. - there is literally no excuse for designing a bass or guitar with neck dive.

 

[Grinderman]

How is it a badly designed instrument? It’s unarguable that a headless bass is a better engineered instrument. And “We” insist on basses that look just like Leo designed in the 1950s.
And I count ME among the WE.

But bass guitarists no longer have the right to complain about neck dive because there’s a solution and the only flaw in that solution is it doesn’t look like a 50s P bass.

I admit I’m part of the problem. But at least I am honest about the problem.

We, the royal subjects of King Leo.

If you like neck dive then you're doing it half-aZZed.

 

[InhumanResource]

Neck dive is the equivalent of a car that falls over if you don't stand there and hold it upright - it's a fundamental design error that indicates sloppy work. With CAD tools nowadays, the center of gravity calculation is trivial to do, and you can easily account for different wood densities, etc. - there is literally no excuse for designing a bass or guitar with neck dive.

Where is the center of gravity supposed to be? How do we test whether the bass is balanced

 

[badinage]

I guess I'll be more sensitive to "neckdive" now.

I never paid much attention to bass weight either before coming to TB.

Straps? Not a care there either. Now what annoys me more than anything is a strap that FALLS OFF my shoulder if I plop my butt down on a stool. NOT just ANY stool, mind you, it MUST be a 24" height stool because all others are just poorly engineered and there's no excuse for that.

 

[Wyrdlow]

This is one reason why I don't like Gibson Thunderbirds, Epiphone EB-3s, and similar basses.

I would have LOVED to have liked playing a Thunderbird, but the way they hang on a strap was a deal breaker for me. Everything else about them is awesome!