Necks Shimmed by the Factory? WTH?

[Yahboy]

Not news. Fender Am Pro J I been setup also has thin piece wood found on neck pocket.

 

[pcake]

i have a shim story for ya. about 12 years ago, i bought a republic parlor acoustic guitar. it was wonky in every way. when my husband pulled the neck, we found someone had shimmed it with a zip tie!!! i kid you not.

in case you're wondering, removing the zip tie made the neck a lot more stable...

 

[Tim Skaggs]

They need to find a way to compensate for the natural changes that can occur in wood imh.

Manufacturers discovered superb help interconnecting mismatches.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

First World problem.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

Not at all the same. Adjustable saddles and truss rod are for fine tunning the instrument for best performance, as pickup height screws. They are meant to be adjusted. Neck to body angle is a constructive parameter in the building process. It is part of the instrument design. This is what allowing the saddles to be adjusted. Can you see the difference?

No difference to see on basses with neck tilt adjustment, and no shim required.

 

[mcnach]

I'm saying in 35 years I have NEVER seen a shim in a new instrument. Ever. Rarely in a used instrument. Once that I can recall in that time

I don't have a reason to not believe you, but if you're saying that those of us who have seen shims in many NEW instruments are under some kind of delusion, then I don't think you're really looked

 

[mcnach]

That is most bolt on necks, from (insert major name mfg) that are produced, it's as common that there is a shim, than there is not. I've worked on thousands of instruments. I agree it's an addressable issue with mfg tolerances, but it is the way it is.

Yup, and if they are stricter with tolerances, they would cost more and there will always be somebody whining why is a bolt-on instrument that expensive?


What amuses me the most about this, is that a lot of the people who are horrified about shims they've probably played and love instruments that had a shim installed without knowing it.

Franz Zappa said it best...

 

[Nenor]

No difference to see on basses with neck tilt adjustment, and no shim required.

Yeah, whatever. It's a argument over opinion. I don't like shims, you do or at least don't mind them. Doesn't matter as long as you play the right notes.

 

[Ritter667]

Thanks for the response.

I get that it's perfectly fine, and common to use them during set up. Phobia? Not quite, but it does make me doubt the quality of instruments coming out of a factory if they have to use shims to compensate for design or workmanship flaws on a regular basis.

Sometimes the shim is part of the design, and luthiers use them as well. Those don't worry me. I am referring, for example, to a standard J-bass copy, designed to have the neck bolt directly into the pocket in a perfect fit, and the assemblers are having to add shims on the regular. That speaks to a process flaw.

I have owned Kawai, Fender, FGN, Michael Kelly, Ibanez, Squier, and Offbeat bolt-on basses. I prefer bolt-on necks specifically because they can be replaced, shimmed, modified, and removed during refrets and more serious work. I have removed the necks on all of those, except the Offbeat, and never once did I find a shim. I have had a shim added (the Kawai) but none of them were shimmed by the manufacturer.

So, like I said, not anti-shim, but assemblers having to use shims to compensate for design or workmanship flaws - that makes me wonder what else they couldn't get quite right.

If it is any comfort I never found any shims in my cheap budget Ibanez basses either, who have all had just about perfect fretwork right from factory, unlike what I hear about Squier and even Fender.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

If it is any comfort I never found any shims in my cheap budget Ibanez basses either, who had all had just about perfect fretwork right from factory, unlike what I hear about Squier and even Fender.

Yep, Cortek does great work. Doesn't treat employees well, but produces a solid product for many of their contractees.

 

[MartinB]

My Cortek-built bass has a factory shim. This doesn't bother me in the slightest

 

[eniac]

If my take on humanity in general is correct, someday we'll see a shim from a 1968 Precision up on Reverb for $15,000.

I'll let someone else check whether there's one already up there.

 

[TheArchitect]

I don't have a reason to not believe you, but if you're saying that those of us who have seen shims in many NEW instruments are under some kind of delusion, then I don't think you're really looked

I'm saying the membership of this forum is exceedingly small in the large picture and that the OP's angst is not warranted because of the incredibly small percentage of new instruments that would in fact have a shim in them

 

[B-Mac]

Problem is that Ibanez doesn't make basses. They make bass bodies, bass necks, etc. And it's Cor-Tec, except for those made in Japan. In other words they make bass parts that later get assembled. It's not like a luthier is slaving away making the entire bass unless it's neck thru or possibly a set neck bass.

A Premium Ibanez or Prestige Ibanez more than anything builds an entire bass from start to finish and even that is only a strong 'probably'.

If you own any other mass produced basses take the neck off and you'll more than likely see some type of shim.

Ibanez has no shop in Nazareth Pennsylvania.

 

[TheArchitect]

Problem is that Ibanez doesn't make basses. They make bass bodies, bass necks, etc. And it's Cor-Tec, except for those made in Japan. In other words they make bass parts that later get assembled. It's not like a luthier is slaving away making the entire bass unless it's neck thru or possibly a set neck bass.

A Premium Ibanez or Prestige Ibanez more than anything builds an entire bass from start to finish and even that is only a strong 'probably'.

If you own any other mass produced basses take the neck off and you'll more than likely see some type of shim.

Ibanez has no shop in Nazareth Pennsylvania.

Ibanez doesn;t make anything do they? Its all outsourced as far as I know

 

[Jeff Scott]

Ibanez has no shop in Nazareth Pennsylvania.

This is key.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

The neck tilt apparatus found on several bass brands past & present is a way to speed up the setup process, and seems to be a solution to eliminate use of the lowly shim. Then, a person who can think in abstract, visualizes that a neck with no shim and no neck tilt has the full surface area of the bottom of the neck (body) pocket in contact with an equal surface area of the neck heel. There could also be some contact around the sides of the neck (body) pocket and sides of the neck heel, but these are light to heavy friction contacts & not high pressure contacts.

Now think about adjusting the neck tilt screw up by 1/16" or .0625". Now the amount of body pocket contacting the heel of the neck is equal to the width of the body pocket at its headstock-facing edge, and the area of the tip of the tilt screw. On an average Fender neck with no shim and no tilt mechanism, there will be about 7 - 8 square inches of neck heel to body contact. On a neck-tilted bass, there might be less that 1/4 square inch in contact. A well made shim provides much more neck to body contact (through the shim) , but does it matter? There are 30+ year old G&Ls, 40+ year old Peaveys & 50+ year old Fenders with the neck tilt screw holding 99% of the body pocket away from the neck heel, and those basses are being played. If a shim creates angst for you, a neck tilt bass should cause you to go into convulsions.

It's all perspective.

 

[Jeff Scott]

...If a shim creates angst for you, a neck tilt bass should cause you to go into convulsions.

We need pics.

 

[B-Mac]

Ibanez doesn;t make anything do they? Its all outsourced as far as I know

Not really my point, but correct, though I think they have more control on the ones actually made in Japan (Prestige).

My point is that all the manufactures of mass produced basses and other stringed instruments actually make bass parts which are then assembled by someone else in some other part of the same factory. Finishes, especially paint, is frequently outsourced separately too. This was pointed out to me recently by Phil McKnight on 'Know Your Gear' and the light bulb went on. It was a moment.

 

[B-Mac]

The neck tilt apparatus found on several bass brands past & present is a way to speed up the setup process, and seems to be a solution to eliminate use of the lowly shim. Then, a person who can think in abstract, visualizes that a neck with no shim and no neck tilt has the full surface area of the bottom of the neck (body) pocket in contact with an equal surface area of the neck heel. There could also be some contact around the sides of the neck (body) pocket and sides of the neck heel, but these are light to heavy friction contacts & not high pressure contacts.

Now think about adjusting the neck tilt screw up by 1/16" or .0625". Now the amount of body pocket contacting the heel of the neck is equal to the width of the body pocket at its headstock-facing edge, and the area of the tip of the tilt screw. On an average Fender neck with no shim and no tilt mechanism, there will be about 7 - 8 square inches of neck heel to body contact. On a neck-tilted bass, there might be less that 1/4 square inch in contact. A well made shim provides much more neck to body contact (through the shim) , but does it matter? There are 30+ year old G&Ls, 40+ year old Peaveys & 50+ year old Fenders with the neck tilt screw holding 99% of the body pocket away from the neck heel, and those basses are being played. If a shim creates angst for you, a neck tilt bass should cause you to go into convulsions.

It's all perspective.

As the owner of 3 basses with neck tilt I can assure you that the neck tilt apparatus is strictly for adjusting playing preference as all three of my basses with neck tilt still have some type of shim, whether it be a piece of emery cloth or two pieces of emery cloth.

I invite everyone with a Peavey bass with Neck Tilt to remove the necks from their 80's Peavey USA basses.