New: Zoom B3n Multi-Effects

[The Rage]

Are you saying I'm affiliated with zoom?

 

[CharlieC]

...Even the guy who started this thread (Charlie C), has sold his zoom b3n, bought a Helix stomp, and hasn't looked back!!.....

Indeed!

 

[steve_rolfeca]

What he is trying to say is - most line levels like those from your bass are unbalanced - typical of only 2 wires and the plug end show 2 sections known as tip and sleeve or TS.

...A long cable run is more likely to acquire noise so a TRS line level run is great, a mic level (also 3 wires) is great, an unbalanced line out from your bass is likely not great and getting worse, the longer the cable is. Add to this the capacitance added to a passive bass and it will kill your tone on top of it.

Just a minor correction:

Output levels from electric basses vary a lot, but the vast majority are well under even consumer line levels.

Balanced TRS outputs with proper switching for both the consumer -10dB standard and the pro +4dB standard are extremely rare outside of rack equipment.

There’s nothing “noob” about using a DI with regular electric basses and the majority of floor effects.

Speaking of which, hats off to Line 6 for putting +4 grade components in the output stage of the new box. That’s pretty cool.

Still, I mostly think of it as a throwaway benefit for home studio use, and bands that carry their own PA but mix at side stage. You rarely get really strong levels with low background noise when you plug keyboards or pedals into to the 1/4” jacks on entry level mixers and audio interfaces. Being able to send a hot, clean signal to the board will free up an XLR input for something else.

I don’t think it will get much use outside of that, though.

TRS isn’t a pro connector, and the vast majority of 1/4” connectors don’t offer the ruggedness and locking features of XLR. Those that do, are quite cumbersome and expensive. Even in small venues, installed sound always features a snake these days, and you generally don’t see TRS inputs on them.

Because the majority of instruments don’t offer balanced outputs on TRS, most musician’s gig bags don’t include spare TRS cables or adapters. FOH in most venues that I work with don’t have loaners either.

This means that most Helix Stomp users will still have to choose between using an available DI, or carrying TRS to XLR adapters (easily lost, and they probably can’t bum a spare on the gig).

The only other option would be to buy TRS cables in lengths long enough to bypass the snake. Try finding a high-quality 100’ TRS cable, and brace yourself for the price. Especially when you’re out on the road.

That will only be half the battle. You still have to trust that FOH and the venue will be OK with you running separate cables to FOH (potential legal liability due trip hazard), and letting you direct-connect to a line input on the board.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

Going back to the trip hazard/connector issue for a second:

That’s why I wouldn’t use the TRS feature on the gig if I owned a Helix stomp, or let an act send anything TRS direct into the board when I was doing sound.

1/4” connectors are a great way to protect my valuable gear on stage. If someone trips on an XLR cable, all they’re going to do most of the time is knock the venue’s mic stand over, or drag a DI across the floor. It’s not going to damage my stuff, because the 1/4” jacks on their output will just pop out when they’re snagged. That’s why the locking Neutrik connector on my Dingwall and the XLR on my ABG make me a little jittery.

But 1/4” stereo balanced lines on loose cables all the way back to the desk? No way.

If a patron trips over my loose cable, I could dragged into a potential lawsuit. Plus, there’s a good chance that my performance gets interrupted when a 1/4” cable pops out at one end or the other.

This is also why FOH are unlikely to authorize it in the first place. They’re allergic to potential legal issues, plus they don’t want to risk having one of their inputs damaged. They sprinkle DI’s liberally around the stage for a reason.

Speaking of which, there’s another fact that many musicians overlook when it comes to DI’s: A well designed DI doesn’t just ensure a clean signal over long cable runs and reduce noise; it also protects the venue’s expensive equipment from stray voltages that could fry their inputs.

When you ask FOH to let you plug into their board direct, they’ve got a couple of things to consider:

• Are you a good risk in terms of not tripping over your own TRS cable? If you bring the board or a table crashing down, are you going to pay for the damage?
• Is there any risk that you might send them a speaker-level feed by mistake, or a high DC voltage from a badly-maintained tube amp that could fry an input or even the whole board?

Speaking from personal experience, I would trust some, but not all of my closest musician friends. Visiting acts in a club?

Heck no.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

Be careful on these forums, as I've discovered that some forum members are actually affiliated with Zoom, but pretend to be objective customers!

...You'll even see them comparing budget Zoom products with gear that is clearly superior (Kemper, Axe FX, Helix, Headrush etc), and trying to convince people that there is little/no difference in quality!

Ask yourself: why would these members be on various forums like: (Talkbass, Basschat, The Gearpage, Gearslutz, etc) always posting release material directly from The Zoom Corporation, pasting the same comments on each forum, and passive-aggressively defending every zoom deficiency in quality?

...I'm glad that some forum members have finally noticed this questionable behaviour, but were wise enough to ignore the hyperbole and buy The Helix anyway....

True.

I see the same behaviour with certain users affiliated with other companies, including Ampeg, Boss/Roland, Fender, Kala, Line 6, etc. They are outnumbered by the classy types that make their affiliations known, but the shills often drown out the good guys in terms of quantity.

That said, for many entry level players and semi-pros, there is a lot to be said for good entry level products, like the Zoom gear being discussed on this thread.

For instance, I would argue that while Helix (especially the full-sized model) flat out kills any conventional affordable floor modeller (I include Boss and others here, not just the Bn and Gn- series Zoom products) in terms of flexibility, routing, visual interface, integration with other pro gear, etc., the gap narrows considerably if you compare a simple mono patch.

And build quality?

Same deal. Helix is hardly boutique- it’s just another mass-produced item, made to a price point.

Materials and construction are obviously way better than the disposable Zoom stuff, like the On series.

But I don’t consider it to be in the same class as the bulletproof, almost mil-spec rack gear I grew up with. At the end of the day, all of these companies are walking a fine line with prices, feature sets and build quality, in an extremely tight niche market.

So I see nothing wrong with people making comparisons between the $200 and $1,500 (or more) gear.

The question we’re all trying to answer, is “will multiplying my investment by X make a worthwhile difference to my output”.

Based on those parameters, my personal decision continues to be to spend big on the stuff that matters the most to me (my main bass, my cabs, DI, etc.), and cut corners on the incidentals and hobby involvements, like my backup bass, guitar stuff, and effects that I almost never gig out with...

 

[jimfist]

You'll see them all over the internet, basically advertising Zoom products under the guise of "interested customers"

Well, let's not play cat and mouse. Feel free to name names if you're sure you know what you're talking about. Jeez. Speaking only for myself, I'm absolutely no ZOOM affiliate in any way, shape, or form....never have been, and likely never will be.

And for the record, I've NEVER, EVER claimed that a ZOOM product meets the same stringent tech specs for component quality compared to Fractal Audio (which I've owned and respect greatly), Kemper, Atomic, or Line 6 Helix. My claims are mine and mine only. That there are others here and at different gear forums who are in agreement is bound to happen and gather in the same places.

Also, i do believe it's the policy of most every forum I belong to that anyone with a manufacturer's affiliation MUST DISCLAIM this information.

So, yeah, I'd LOVE to know who I'm corresponding with here that is some sort of Russian spy, covert ZOOM operative. LOL. And even if they were, it's not like your opinion, their opinion, or anyone else's opinion ultimately matters to me regarding a gear purchase, and in the end whether I use the gear or flip it.

I ditched my Fractal Rig and sold it to a guitarist friend who could put it's strengths to much better use than I could on bass. I ditched my Amplifire 3 button for lack of true bass amp support (which has now been rectified) when I compared it to the ZOOM B3 (lots of fans here on TalkBass) which I kept due to the fact it was specifically geared for Bass. I ditched my B3 because I dislike using 3 button pedals live, and when the G5n came out, I liked the extra (and dedicated) switches and WYSIWYG... and then added the B3n when I wanted the new dedicated Bass stuff from Zoom.

So if you like and prefer Line 6 over Zoom, great, and glad you've found what you like. I've found what I like, too, and didn't have to spend more than I wanted to get what I need. Simple as that. And yes, I'm a big fan of what ZOOM has done to accommodate bassists, and though they may be on the ghetto side of things, think they're damn good products for the cash.

Otherwise, I have no strong opinions. LOL.

 

[primussucks9126]

I think these are some great videos that show the Zoom DOES hold it's own against higher end gear.





When they run everything through the same IR in the first video, the differences become a lot more subtle. Many of the commenters seem to agree, but they're probabaly also Zoom shills.

That's not to say that the Zoom cannot be improved upon, but I paid $150 for my B3n brand new. I'd have to spend 4x that to join the Helix family. I get great tone with the B3n, so I feel no urgency to upgrade.

I have tried the Helix native software, and it was great. That's actually what inspired me to buy a B3n, to dip my toes into the world of multi-fx units without breaking the bank. The original plan was to eventually buy a full blown Helix if I found I could get away without my analog stomps, but I've been so happy with the B3n that I don't feel like I need it.

Also, I find what's "better" with modeling is extremely subjective. Comparisons like the ones I posted rarely leave me thinking one is clearly superior, just that they're both different.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

@jimfist, I appreciate your last post, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to mash the Like button, for fear of getting lumped in with guys who’ve gotten in trouble for undisclosed commercial affiliations...

 

[Frellin Smesh]

I've named NO NAMES, and yet I'm met with such a defensive, expository monologue!

I wonder why?!?........(If it doesn't apply.....Let it fly )

 

[jimfist]

Also, I find what's "better" with modeling is extremely subjective. Comparisons like the ones I posted rarely leave me thinking one is clearly superior, just that they're both different.

Exactly. I shifted my approach to be one of "less programming, more playing", and the ZOOM products fit perfectly into that mindset. With the AxeFx, I went deep down the rabbit hole and learned a TON about the new modeling technology, its benefits and pitfalls.

If the current Zoom stuff suffered from subjectively significant quality issues - for the gigs I do - then the other professionals I perform with on stage and in the audience certainly don't seem to care, which just supports my own conclusion: that there can be diminishing returns for throwing in with the big-boy toys, and for many it can be a buzz-kill, and will tend to be forced to justify the decision to pay the big $$ rather than face the possibility that they may have overspent on something they might not really need.

 

[Frellin Smesh]

In the meantime, have you stopped beating your wife and kids? LOL

And, there we have it folks - the passive-aggressive behaviour I was referring to - for simply daring to criticize a Zoom product that I currently use DAILY?!

 

[primussucks9126]

And, there we have it folks - the passive-aggressive behaviour I was referring to - for simply daring to criticize a Zoom product that I currently use DAILY?!

I'd guess it has more to do with your throwing around accusations.

 

[jimfist]

And, there we have it folks - the passive-aggressive behaviour I was referring to - for simply daring to criticize a Zoom product that I currently use DAILY?!

Great. All good. So I'm just curious here....this is in fact a ZOOM thread, so why would it even bother you if there are ZOOM affiliates undercover gushing about their products? That's sort of the whole point of these threads, to gush, or not, or discuss. I know it doesn't matter to me, but curious why it matters so much to you in the context of comparing an HX Stomp to a B3n?

 

[Frellin Smesh]

I'd guess it has more to do with your throwing around accusations.

Accusation - a charge or claim that someone has done something illegal or wrong.
Observation - the action or process of closely observing or monitoring something or someone.

I've made no accusations against any person, but have made honest observations of general conduct.

Any criticism of a Zoom product in this thread is met with some degree of hostility, by certain forum members, as if they have personally been attacked!

This is a factual observation, as demonstrated above.
Why would somebody react so strongly to my observations of my OWN gear?!

So much so, that they decided to call me a woman/child abuser??

 

[jimfist]

Slow day, so I'll just continue to throw in because I find this sort of thing interesting...

Any mild criticism you make of a Zoom product - these posters/members will be right there to downplay your observations and convince everybody else that the zoom product is better than it actually is.

Not going to deny that people get tribal about their favorite gear. I know I'm a passionate gear-head, and always have been. I firmly believe that those who post questions about gear acquisitions should have as broad a scope of information as possible. Not saying there aren't ZOOM affiliates (how would I know unless disclosed, and you won't share, so....), but some people - like myself - really do enjoy the back-and-forth discussion of the good and bad of gear they use, in order to better inform people. You can call it "downplaying", but in the end whether a product is "better than it actually is" is a subjective thing. Zoom has surprised people for certainly being "better than I ever expected". Whether someone views this as "downplaying your observations" is their problem, not mine.

You'll even see them comparing budget Zoom products with gear that is clearly superior (Kemper, Axe FX, Helix, Headrush etc), and trying to convince people that there is little/no difference in quality!

The question here is: what matters? Nobody in their right mind would expect that the sonic tech specs of the components used in a Zoom product are of the same quality as a Kemper or AxeFx. If you're driving down the street to get groceries once a week, do you need to drive a Tesla, or will a Camry do? Clearly, one has better specs than the other, but both are very capable of getting the job done. Under a fine microscope and under engineering level scrutiny, well-trained ears might notice the technical differences. The vast majority of the rest of the world won't. For its market, the Zoom quality standard doesn't need to go above and beyond.

Ask yourself: why would these members be on various forums like: (Talkbass, Basschat, The Gearpage, Gearslutz, etc) always posting release material directly from The Zoom Corporation, pasting the same comments on each forum, and passive-aggressively defending every zoom deficiency in quality?

Because some of us non-affiliates are gear junkies, and like to spread the news. Things posted on TGP sometimes don't get released to TalkBass and other forums unless common members spot the news and spread it. Call it an unhealthy pre-occupation, but speaking for myself, it's just something that interests me. Nothing more.

You will also notice that their comments receive "likes" from the exact same people everytime they post something regarding a Zoom product on talkbass!

I guess there's some sort of unwritten law that if people of common mind support each other with "likes", there must be some underlying conspiracy? Yikes.

I'm glad that some forum members have finally noticed this questionable behaviour, but were wise enough to ignore the hyperbole and buy The Helix anyway....

I'm not the type of person who assumes that people are so sheep-like as to not be able to make up their own mind about gear, and understand how to navigate opinions - and they are just opinions - regarding gear choices. Please feel free to point out a direct quote that represents the "questionable behaviour" you're talking about. I'm interested to see what it looks like.

 

[primussucks9126]

Accusation - a charge or claim that someone has done something illegal or wrong.

Ok, since we're using definitions now, what's right and wrong (outside of legal definitions) is subjective, and based on the way you've framed the conversation around it, it seems (to me) like you're implying that it's wrong for these so-called Zoom affiliates to do what they do (calling their behavior questionable, telling other forum members to "be careful" when reading their comments) so based on my perception, it seems more like an accusation.

Edit: Also, as far as I'm aware, it is against TB rules to leave your corporate affiliations undisclosed, so anyone doing what you're saying they do would be breaking the rules. Is that not "wrong?"

And the definition of observation you provided also doesn't seem to support you here either, since you've gone beyond simply monitoring and observing, and have now made claims about forum members. But that's just since we're going by definitions now.

Anyway, I haven't been following this whole thing, when do you feel the hostility started?

 

[jimfist]

So much so, that they decided to call me a woman/child abuser??

And I'm sure you're not. Just going over-the-top to demonstrate a point, not literally ACCUSE you. Good grief. Perhaps you aren't familiar with this technique - it's been used in politics (forbidden here) for ages as a way to corner someone into admitting guilt unwittingly even when they are innocent.

You've thrown out a blanket accusation about the content of this thread and some of its posters without having the stones to get specific. It would be helpful if you did...if not here, then to the moderators. PM me privately if that helps.

In any event, you did throw out some pretty presumptive and inflammatory stuff today. Otherwise, this has thread has been pretty on-the-level, don't you think?

 

[Frellin Smesh]

Please feel free to point out a direct quote that represents the "questionable behaviour" you're talking about. I'm interested to see what it looks like.

In the meantime, have you stopped beating your wife and kids? LOL

 

[jimfist]

Derrrrr! You mentioned questionable behavior long before my OBVIOUSLY CONFLATED question, again, which I used only for effect, not literally. Seriously. I apologize for not making it clear that this was only done for effect.

For those of you who've never heard of this:

You were talking about questionable behavior WRT Zoom "affiliates". Please elaborate.

 

[primussucks9126]

Yeah, but you made your questionable behavior claim before that post. Can you please cite another example?