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Old School vs. New School Amplification

...I could say farming out an amp build to offshore sweatshop labor is shameful and only greed driven.

What I see from the pounding I'm taking here is people with substandard, mass production, consumer grade electronics attempting to justify their own cheapness and cost cutting methods.

Not to come off sounding sexist with my example, but tone in general can be like taste in women. You might see a redhead that everyone thinks is beautiful, but they aren't your type of woman so she has no appeal to you. I happen to think redheads are amazingly attractive, but that's because they fall under the category of women I like. You cannot objectively say in 100% inarguable confidence that one amp sounds tonally superior to another, you can only state which you find better or more enjoyable. I own tube amps and solid state ones and like them for different things. I'm warming up considerably to GK amps because I can get the hint of grind I like from tube amps and then amplify it considerably from there without worrying about more distortion coming from the power section. I don't have to look as hard or worry about volume when going for the sweet spot that I like. Some people like that extra power section breakup, but it doesn't work in the band I'm in right now, not to mention it's easier to maintain "my tone" with the GKs at varying volumes.

I happen to own a 70's receiver, turntable, and original speakers that my dad gave to me when I moved out. I really enjoy the character and present midrange that comes through on the stereo and I don't hear that in most CD players or audio receivers/speakers these days within a reasonable price range. I could make the assertion that it having lower THD than most modern receivers and not being uber mid-scooped means it sounds better, but some people don't feel that way. I realize there are absurd levels to take this to (i.e. - Apple earbuds will not sound as full as a set of Sony studio mixing headphones), but we're talking about reasonably well-made bass amplifiers here. I'd venture to say GK, Genz Benz (when they were still around), Markbass, and countless others aren't making substandard electronics---but that's my opinion.
 
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More than that, many of us ARE qualified to explain the technical aspects of amplification. Hell, agedhorse, Bob Lee and others have designed the very amps we're here to talk about.

Thanks, but I don't design the amps. We have smarter people here who do that. ;)
 
This has been a great thing for my day, I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread!!
I like to think I am an amp/bass/cab quality sniffer, and I do believe that these sounds are there to distinguish but I will be danged if it has ever had anything to do with old or new school equipment; just good and bad designs. It is always the player, and some cats are great musicians but terrible at setting their equipment as well. My example is Pino Palladino with the John Mayer Trio. Now Pino is a fantastic player and I could never come close to his abilities, but his tone through that old school rig of his with JMT was really muddy and indistinct on many recordings I heard - not my favorite tone. But, someone (many) out there liked it because tone is soo subjective.
I don't gig enough unfortunately to know what type of equipment is the most road worthy, but I would think that if FFTT's arguments were only about that and not how things sound there could be some to agree with him. I myself have wondered why a tube would be mounted to a board cause everyone always says "be careful when you remove it so as not to damage the circuit board" - but I must admit I know nothing of design and the reasons why it would end up one way or another.
And for the record, I still think my Streamliner is the cat's meow everytime I play through it.

Please, carry on this is great fun.
gab
 
Best to ask someone who owns a Hiwatt 400 or Reeves 400.

I don't know if they're still available, but there was both a Hiwatt and a Reeves for sale in the Amps Classifieds a few days ago. There was also a /13 rig about two weeks ago, but I think the seller pulled the listing. Part of me has always wanted to own a nice, point-to-point amp, but I suppose I have the same concern that everybody has: Are they really that much better? I've played through some nice amps, but never anything that boutique. I've listened to clips of the ultra boutique guitar amps, and yeah, I do think they sound better than off-the-shelf Marshalls, even on low bit rate audio clips (but the prices that Dumbles and Trainwrecks command is just stupid insane).

At the end of the day, I don't think you need boutique gear to sound great, but you should be willing to invest a little bit of money, time, and thought into how you achieve your sound. (and then hopefully a rank amateur sound guy doesn't screw it all up :D).
 
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Play your vintage basses through a Reeves 225 or 400 or a Hiwatt DR-201 or 400 and let that sink in.

My friends in U.K. have the finest amps ever built right in their own back yard, vintage Hiwatt and Matamp.

You also have a few Big Logos who should be ashamed of themselves for taking jobs offshore and building some of the junk they now offer.

BTW, I am not commercially affiliated with any builder and if you were to ask them directly they would tell you I insisted on neutrality.
 
That's been my experience as well. The difference in my lead-sled QSC RMX850 and switching PLX1602 is definitely noticeable, even when they're driving monitors. The former has an authority in the lows and low-mids that the latter lacks. They're both great amps, but weight and power aside, I prefer the lead sled.

I've got an RMX850 I'll happily trade for your PLX.....
 
In guitar amps, you can basically pick your ideal dream amp and someone will built it to order.


I don't know if they're still available, but there was both a Hiwatt and a Reeves for sale in the Amps Classifieds a few days ago. There was also a /13 rig about two weeks ago, but I think the seller pulled the listing. Part of me has always wanted to own a nice, point-to-point amp, but I suppose I have the same concern that everybody has: Are they really that much better? I've played through some nice amps, but never anything that boutique. I've listened to clips of the ultra boutique guitar rate audio clips (but the prices that Dumbles and Trainwrecks command is just stupid insane).
At the end of the day, I don't think you need boutique gear to sound great, but you should be willing to invest a little bit of money, time, and thought into how you achieve your sound. (and then hopefully a rank amateur sound guy doesn't screw it all up :D).
 
Not to come off sounding sexist with my example, but tone in general can be like taste in women. You might see a redhead that everyone thinks is beautiful, but they aren't your type of woman so she has no appeal to you. I happen to think redheads are amazingly attractive, but that's because they fall under the category of women I like. You cannot objectively say in 100% inarguable confidence that one amp sounds tonally superior to another, you can only state which you find better or more enjoyable. I own tube amps and solid state ones and like them for different things. I'm warming up considerably to GK amps because I can get the hint of grind I like from tube amps and then amplify it considerably from there without worrying about more distortion coming from the power section. I don't have to look as hard or worry about volume when going for the sweet spot that I like. Some people like that extra power section breakup, but it doesn't work in the band I'm in right now, not to mention it's easier to maintain "my tone" with the GKs at varying volumes.

I happen to own a 70's receiver, turntable, and original speakers that my dad gave to me when I moved out. I really enjoy the character and present midrange that comes through on the stereo and I don't hear that in most CD players or audio receivers/speakers these days within a reasonable price range. I could make the assertion that it having lower THD than most modern receivers and not being uber mid-scooped means it sounds better, but some people don't feel that way. I realize there are absurd levels to take this to (i.e. - Apple earbuds will not sound as full as a set of Sony studio mixing headphones), but we're talking about reasonably well-made bass amplifiers here. I'd venture to say GK, Genz Benz (when they were still around), Markbass, and countless others aren't making substandard electronics---but that's my opinion.
I don't think that sounds sexist at all. Different people have different tastes, and that applies to everybody, in basically any area where there's any room for subjective personal preferences.

I usually use food comparisons, myself. Lots of people like Hawaiian pizza. You know, with the pineapple and stuff. I don't. Does this mean that Hawaiian pizza is not a well-made, good pizza, if it's made by a great pizza parlor who know their stuff? No, it's just that said kind of pizza doesn't appeal to me, no matter how well it's made (I prefer various kinds of "four cheeses" style pizza and pepperoni/sausage pizza, for the record). My liking something or not liking something doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad or good, so much as it's a reflection of my own particular tastes and preferences.

For example, with amps, I don't like SWR heads at all. Not even a little bit. You might even say that I hate them. But that doesn't mean they're crappy in terms of quality, it's just that they're almost the antithesis of what my personal preferences are in amps.

I don't know if they're still available, but there was both a Hiwatt and a Reeves for sale in the Amps Classifieds a few days ago. There was also a /13 rig about two weeks ago, but I think the seller pulled the listing. Part of me has always wanted to own a nice, point-to-point amp, but I suppose I have the same concern that everybody has: Are they really that much better? I've played through some nice amps, but never anything that boutique. I've listened to clips of the ultra boutique guitar amps, and yeah, I do think they sound better than off-the-shelf Marshalls, even on low bit rate audio clips (but the prices that Dumbles and Trainwrecks command is just stupid insane).

At the end of the day, I don't think you need boutique gear to sound great, but you should be willing to invest a little bit of money, time, and thought into how you achieve your sound. (and then hopefully a rank amateur sound guy doesn't screw it all up :D).
I think to some extent, as far as paying for labor is concerned, quite a few higher end bass amps are relatively reasonably priced. Especially with custom stuff, it's going to be more expensive than off the shelf gear, because it takes way longer to make.

Dumbles are ridiculous, though. I've heard that the ones that have been de-gooped have turned out to be simply modifications of other, older, relatively simple circuits.

Play your vintage basses through a Reeves 225 or 400 or a Hiwatt DR-201 or 400 and let that sink in.

My friends in U.K. have the finest amps ever built right in their own back yard, vintage Hiwatt and Matamp.

You also have a few Big Logos who should be ashamed of themselves for taking jobs offshore and building some of the junk they now offer.

BTW, I am not commercially affiliated with any builder and if you were to ask them directly they would tell you I insisted on neutrality.
Hiwatt and Reeves are an example of very, very high quality amps that just aren't made for doing what I want an amp to do. And that doesn't mean I think that they're bad. Quite the opposite. But an example of how not every product is made for every player.
 
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Best to ask someone who owns a Hiwatt 400 or Reeves 400.

I don't think the hiwatt is actually 400 watts in reality?

Also just to bring up an argument that isn't amp based, but decidedly vintage. Leo Fender was trying to be the Henry Ford of guitars, and make them cheaply and easily as possible! He's the OG of electric rock music gear in a way and he was doing what you hate from day one.


It's business dude, if I can make a product for less and people still buy it, Why would I make it to your specs and lose money? You're obviously not my customer and never will be as your buying old stuff from private citizens it sounds like.

As for the tone of old vs new or anything else, that's like your opinion man. And you're really cool for sharing over and over, I think if you say it again we might all finally realize we're idiots and start agreeing. You're a bass player, so you know how dense we can be and not listen to reason...
 
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I hope I can state this in a manner that is clear and concise. There is no black and white to this subject, there are many many shades of grey between the black and the white.

A good PCB amp as well as a good hand wired amp should both be good. That being said there are an awful many PCB amps out there that are built with very poor parts (caps, resistors, boards, etc) so the electrons do know the difference as someone mentioned a few pages back.

The difference is not so much in the type of construction as is the quality of construction and quality of the parts used in construction. Put crap in get crap out, put honey in get honey out.

If the argument is that the electrons don't know the difference then this implys the latest amp from Walmart can sound as good as a 68 50 Marshall Plexi. Sorry not the same. The point is the quality of the sum of parts.

All that being said the Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0 must have some quality in there somewhere as the tone and warmth of the amp is quite fantastic, of course mine has a 1955 Mullard ECC83 inside.
 
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You can say better construction makes an amp less likely to have issues and no one would disagree.... But to say one part or the sum make the tone better isn't provable. You might prove components or the sum of them can change the tone, but you can't rate that tone for anyone but you.
 
Here is an example question; Is there a difference in tone of an amp built with all paper in oil caps as compared to same identical construction and circuit built with polypropylene plastic caps?
 
Here is an example question; Is there a difference in tone of an amp built with all paper in oil caps as compared to same identical construction and circuit built with polypropylene plastic caps?

I know for a fact which one will be messier upon failure of the cap ;)
 
Munjibunga- I too remember not all that fondly the mind numbing layout with donuts, crepe tape and pad patterns. I also remember making the transition to red and blue's and to this day I still use red for top and blue for bottom on my CAD layouts even though many folks do not.
LOL. I left that business after about a year when the company went bankrupt - the CEO was dumping all the company money into his yacht. I ended up a geologist.
 
Just an interesting perspective.


Mesa Mark II
C%2b_rackmounted_inside_big.jpg


Mesa Mark V


markvgut1.jpg


Not sure if current production has changed or not.

Just being honest, I have to wonder if this designer went to the same school as the guy who designed the V-6 GM's where you had to jack up the motor to replace a spark plug.
 
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