Of course as a tech, you are paid not only for your general knowledge and quality of workmanship, but you are also paid by the hour,
so an amp that's a pain in the arse to work on will generally cost more in labor.
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Old School vs. New School Amplification
- Thread starter jazztonebass
- Start date
Of course as a tech, you are paid not only for your general knowledge and quality of workmanship, but you are also paid by the hour,
so an amp that's a pain in the arse to work on will generally cost more in labor.
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
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- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
I actually worked flat rate quite a lot of the time when I was still in the business. Making a turret board repair look nice is often a heck of a lot more work than making a PCB one look good though. But again, just depends on specific cases. Link Removed
So you can determine the quality of the components simply by viewing them? Can you judge solder joints this way too?
My point is, you flip between alluding to specs and listening with your eyes with no objective support for your claims.
It adds up to smelling like BS.
I don't think there is a uniform answer for everyone, but I do take issue with someone making a broad based (almost faith based) claim, and then using circular logic to support it.
- Feb 12, 2006
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- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
There are plastic jacks and switches that are so far superior to the old intermittent POS jacks and switches of yester-year that to justify those old parts as higher quality is simply absurd. In fact, some of the most major strides in reliability have come from improvements in jacks, switches, tube sockets and connectors. Does anybody remember the good 'ol days of the 90 day warranty which used to be standard???
OP - from one old timer to another - go out and try some Markbass and Genz Benz micro amps. You will be pleased with what you find. And your back will thank you when you have to move stuff around.
- Jul 2, 2013
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- Pro Gear Manager, Loud and Clear, Inc.
For some reason you have chosen to paraphrase my words to change the context, and therefore the entire meaning of my statement. Actually, what I wrote was "to a high percentage of trained ears analog and vacuum tube technology coloration and response have an "organic" tonal advantage". It was meant as more of a factoid rather than any type of "a put-down to the solid state forum members".
How can you extrapolate what my personal preferences are tonally from what I posted?
Are you some sort of online forum clairvoyant: do you have the ability see the true thoughts of other online forum posters?
Do you have political aspirations, or are you maybe a writer for the news media and are just "practicing" for your day job?
or...
Did you really not comprehend what I posted?
I know enough at a quick glance to tell if an amp is a piece of crap.
At the very minimum, I can see if I need to do more research about the build, the components that go into the build, the builder's overall track record.
I think Mesa had better days.
I thought the Mark II series were pretty good amps and the EV/MESA Road Ready Cabs were really high quality,
but I look under the hood now and it looks like a PC. A tone generating computer.
Maybe that's what market research tells you is today's younger musician wants every bell and whistle under the sun in one amp and for under $1000.00
I thought about a Mesa 400+ until I heard it needed 12 power tubes.
Blue Angels could weep and I'm still not gonna buy an amp that needs 12 power tubes.
The Only Mesa Product I wish I owned was one the 18" EV/Mesa Road Ready Cabs.
I do also very much appreciate Susan over at Studio Slips!
If you think I'm full of BS, just try a Black Face Vibrolux Reverb next to a Custom Vibrolux RI or DR vs DRRI, Silver Face Twin next to a Twin RI, if you can't tell the difference you're deafer than I am.
At the very minimum, I can see if I need to do more research about the build, the components that go into the build, the builder's overall track record.
I think Mesa had better days.
I thought the Mark II series were pretty good amps and the EV/MESA Road Ready Cabs were really high quality,
but I look under the hood now and it looks like a PC. A tone generating computer.
Maybe that's what market research tells you is today's younger musician wants every bell and whistle under the sun in one amp and for under $1000.00
I thought about a Mesa 400+ until I heard it needed 12 power tubes.
Blue Angels could weep and I'm still not gonna buy an amp that needs 12 power tubes.
The Only Mesa Product I wish I owned was one the 18" EV/Mesa Road Ready Cabs.
I do also very much appreciate Susan over at Studio Slips!
If you think I'm full of BS, just try a Black Face Vibrolux Reverb next to a Custom Vibrolux RI or DR vs DRRI, Silver Face Twin next to a Twin RI, if you can't tell the difference you're deafer than I am.
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You are continuing to miss the point.
Any two different amps, will sound different, but I like your example so we will continue to use it. Taking those similar circuits (I say similar, because I dont believe there was a true 1:1 translation), and listening to them there will be differences. So, in your own words and experience what are those differences? Additionally, please objectively quantify exactly what causes those differences.
Or I guess: What does a "vintage" capacitor sound like compared to a new one?
Wow, why even show up if that's how you feel?
I tried early on to explain it is the sum of all parts and the execution of the build that determine how an amp will sound.
The simplicity of the circuit also affects the tone and the overall response of the amp to the player's touch.
Big Heavy Transformers contribute to a greater richness and depth in tone.
The values assigned to most components fit within a certain range of compliance.
The materials and construction of individual components does have an effect on the overall sound.
Those variables can add up to an amp that may have the same basic specs, but one will sound magical and the other not so special.
The way an amp is wired together is also affected by variables, as I stated earlier, the type of wire, gauge, insulation material, routing, length of the wire, quality of the solder joints, all add up.
Machine built PCB may reduce many of those variables for a more consistent outcome, but something gets lost in the translation even
at the highest level of quality. That only deteriorates when companies cut every corner to please the bean counters.
The simplicity of the circuit also affects the tone and the overall response of the amp to the player's touch.
Big Heavy Transformers contribute to a greater richness and depth in tone.
The values assigned to most components fit within a certain range of compliance.
The materials and construction of individual components does have an effect on the overall sound.
Those variables can add up to an amp that may have the same basic specs, but one will sound magical and the other not so special.
The way an amp is wired together is also affected by variables, as I stated earlier, the type of wire, gauge, insulation material, routing, length of the wire, quality of the solder joints, all add up.
Machine built PCB may reduce many of those variables for a more consistent outcome, but something gets lost in the translation even
at the highest level of quality. That only deteriorates when companies cut every corner to please the bean counters.
Absolutely, but that isn't exclusive to any particular build method.
Please quantify how and why "simplicity" of the circuit specifically effects the tone.
Please quantify how and why the weight of the transformer specifically effects the tone.
Once again these particulars are not exclusive to one build method.
This is what smacks of dogma to me. While I can agree that huge differences in quality of components become apparent, I have zero faith in the idea that if everything falls in to spec, there is still some difference based solely on build method.
We were just making one of those bass player jokes, man. He was a bass player at one time.
+1 My point above (using the Shuttle as an example) is that every amp sounds different. The Shuttle is a good example of an amp that is 'tight and bright' . The low end voicing, along with the design and starting point of the bass shelving control, results in those amps punching down low and sounding very articulate up top (love it... even the big, full weight 1200 has a bit of this inherent voicing to my ear... has nothing to do with 'class of amp' or whatever). However, if someone is looking for massive low end extension, that amp would not be one I would recommend. Others do that better (some class D, some class A/B, some class G!).
My main point is that every amp has its own tonal profile. For some reason, those who try a micro amp that they don't like seem to quickly attribute what they don't like to the class of amp, or the size of the unit, or whatever. You rarely hear those who try a Thunderfunk550 (which has a similar punchy and somewhat attenuated low end) say, 'I tried a class A/B amp with a transformer and they sound thin down low'
Lots of different voicings in all these amps (tube, small, large, whatever). That is mostly due to the 'sound in the designers head', and is primarily influenced by the preamp voicing, the EQ center, Q and shelving start points, the hi passing and additional low end voicing, and the power management design that kicks in as you push the amp.
Yeah, I had a thunderfunk 550 for awhile, and it is not a lightweight amp, but it never produced the lows that I was looking for - or at least they were not easy to find in it for me. I ended up finding those in the Streamliner and to this day have never found an amp as close to my desires in tone and music style than this one. I do need a backup right now and don't really want to have two STL's but at the same time will be looking for something in the same tone neighborhood.
You might want to read up on Ken Fischer of Trainwreck.
He could explain purity of the circuit and refined component selection far better than I could ever attempt to.
Some of these differences you can only grasp when you are in the room experiencing it first hand.
You have to hear it yourself and feel the response.
It is well established that big iron contributes to richness in tone.
Heyboer can explain it far better than I could.
He could explain purity of the circuit and refined component selection far better than I could ever attempt to.
Some of these differences you can only grasp when you are in the room experiencing it first hand.
You have to hear it yourself and feel the response.
It is well established that big iron contributes to richness in tone.
Heyboer can explain it far better than I could.
Bob Lee (QSC)
In case you missed it, I work for QSC Audio!
- Jul 3, 2001
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If you set them up to compare at the same gain, you'd find that the difference is not there, except perhaps for a barely-if-at-all perceptible greater residual noise and hum in the RMX.
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
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- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
When it comes to accounting for taste, nothing is well established. Link Removed
