Old School vs. New School Amplification

[nutdog]

EDIT: And by the way, what on earth is "variable signal path science"? And which is variable- the signal, the path or the science?

My amp has two signal paths. One was dipped in the Jordan river by a virgin for maximum tonal purity. The other was repeatedly fondled by a hottie of questionable moral character and gets really dirty when you want it that way. Or you can blend to taste.

 

[CL400Peavey]

How to explain the complexities of variable signal path science is beyond me.
Going through PCB tends to add a processed sound or it's so sterile and clinical that there's
no life to it, a more mechanical sound.
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What a load of smelly nonsense.

When do the electrons read the schematics?

 

[bucephylus]

Faith is powerful.

 

[Loud and Clear]

There's no compromise with Class-d an Neodymium
Large high priced FOH systems use them exclusively these days. They could use anything they want, they choice to use class-d and neo because it does the job.

Pretty much wrong on all counts.

High priced FOH systems choose to use class D/SMPS amps because they're smaller, easier to handle a rack full of amp, and take up less room in equipment trucks. And they can sound very good

Bingo.
You could add the reduction of loading crew and therefore the savings in labor (income, food, lodging, etc.), and that every pound you save saves you incrementally in fuel costs also.
Absolutely neo drivers are very common and iron transformers aren't prolific in the "big leagues", but not because of any sonic superiority as seamonkey suggests, and the blanket statement that "Large high priced FOH systems use them exclusively these days" is not accurate.

It's a competitive industry; big bids can be won or lost over a few hundred bucks and the bidders that need to factor in an additional 10 or 20 tons, one more tractor trailer, and a half dozen additional stage hands are at a serious disadvantage.
That's why...

Also as JimmyM says, they can sound very good. In fact pro systems continuously sound better as they evolve (as it should be), but it's not because of driver materials or power amp topology.

But... That's sound reproduction technology, this thread is about MI rigs, sound source production technology, where to a high percentage of trained ears analog and vacuum tube technology coloration and response have an "organic" tonal advantage.

 

[SuperSubSonicRainboom]

But... this thread is about...where analog and vacuum tube technology coloration and response have an "organic" tonal advantage

***? that's a put-down to the solid state forum members. that post is maximus presumptuous. analog and vacuum tube technology coloration and responses, which have, as you describe, an "organic" tonal advantage, may not have an advantage per se. they are just difrent technologys to do a similar jobs...but people like both tbh

 

[FFTT]

Hand building, and any layout can influence tone because of coupling between wiring paths, component placement and spacing, etc. once you achieve the "perfect layout", it's so much more repeatable when using pcb assembly techniques and predefined automation fabricated wiring harnesses. Everything is identical do now the variables fall to component tolerances which apply to both construction styles the same, though even here there is an advantage to pcb construction techniques in that many of the smaller components are more available in tighter tolerance ranges. Another advantage of tighter layouts is that loop areas and stray inductance/capacitance issues are much lower and less problematic.

Vox finally yielded to pressure and now offers the AC15 and AC30HW turret board amps.

The first thing you notice is no more PCB mounted tubes.
The tube sockets are chassis mounted.

Stock looks clean and easy to service.

Here's the you might say NASCAR version.
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[KJung]

The sum of all components, the quality & values of the individual sub components, the type of wire, the length and routing of wires, the quality of the sockets, switches, jacks, and generally the least complex circuit will yield the purest tone.
Massive transformers, big warm power section tubes, all come together with a tonal richness, you just can't get going solid state.

Beyond the tone, any working full time musician must consider reliability and serviceability.
How many amps you have in service rotation, backup, downtime.

If you are playing the most important show of your life and your rig goes down, what's that
worth to you?

This is where I don't get your point. Again, all amps sound different, and most of the things you suggest impact tone don't really seem to (based on the years of actual EE's posting on this site).

Also, again, you keep bringing up reliability. There is NO impact of reliability based on the things you are talking about, and again rigs are SO much more reliable today than back in the day. Serviceability on the road is also a strange concept. That is what back-up amps are for.

Edit: I'm enjoying this discussion and not trying to get in your face . I will admit that there is something beautiful about anything well done in a small shop, regardless of category. I just don't feel it translates to either reliability or tone. Kind of like having a hand carved instrument with a fancy top. What's not to like for sure, and definitely worth it to some. Has nothing to do with performance.

 

[CL400Peavey]

But... but... Tonewoodz!

 

[Joe Louvar]

I am returning to the world of amplified electric bass after many years. My last rig, years ago, was a Alembic F1X, a Crest CA9, into various 4x10's and 1x15's. Heavy rig but thunderous.

As I survey the field and consider the movement toward lighter rigs that utilize class D micro amps and Neo drivers, I wonder if there are any sonic sacrifices for the sake of portability with this approach. Can the class D amps like Pumas, and Tone Hammers achieve the punch and feel of the lead sleds?

I want to believe!

Yeah tubes and transistors sound different - but if you're asking if one is better than the other now in 2014 the answers will very depending on who you ask. Personally I'm a GK user and switched from tubes to SS 30+ years ago, I still enjoy the glass bottle amps IE: Mesa, Ampeg, and etc, but I don't want to lug them around. YMMV

 

[FFTT]

When was the last time you played through a vintage hand wired amp?

Have you ever played through a Hiwatt? A Fender Dual Showman, A Sunn 200S, A Blue Line SVT?
A vintage V-4, B-15 or B-18?

Have you ever recorded using one?

This is where I don't get your point. Again, all amps sound different, and most of the things you suggest impact tone don't really seem to (based on the years of actual EE's posting on this site).

Also, again, you keep bringing up reliability. There is NO impact of reliability based on the things you are talking about, and again rigs are SO much more reliable today than back in the day. Serviceability on the road is also a strange concept. That is what back-up amps are for.

Edit: I'm enjoying this discussion and not trying to get in your face . I will admit that there is something beautiful about anything well done in a small shop, regardless of category. I just don't feel it translates to either reliability or tone. Kind of like having a hand carved instrument with a fancy top. What's not to like for sure, and definitely worth it to some. Has nothing to do with performance.

 

[bucephylus]

FFTT: I am curious. You keep showing these pictures of circuits in your amps. What is your point?

They are tidy. But, that doesn't translate directly to any kind of electrical performance. Also, what is the issue with conductive paths on PCB's? Those are not generally unreliable or an impedance issue. If anything, solder joints tend to be more of an issue. But, the hand wired jobs still have the solder joints. I'm not understanding your points. Agree with KJung that something that looks nice does carry pride of ownership. But, don't understand your criticism of the PCB stuff.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Since everyone is sharing the guts of their favorite amp, here's mine: TecAmp Puma 900. I love how this 900-watt amp sounds and totally rely on it for my gigs. Every now and then I look at this picture to remind myself of its brilliance. Don't understand a lick of how it works electronically. But I like it! And it's, er - 1U and 2.2 lbs!!

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[FFTT]

The point is to show the difference in build quality, layout, execution, serviceability, and overall component quality.

There's a horrendous amount of cheap crap being sold to people who don't know any better.

The greater majority of PCB's builds I've show use every possible cost cutting measure to build them cheaper at a greater
profit margin. Some are sinfully overpriced.

If you grasp anything from what I've said, take a closer look before you plunk down your hard earned money.

FFTT: I am curious. You keep showing these pictures of circuits in your amps. What is your point?

They are tidy. But, that doesn't translate directly to any kind of electrical performance. Also, what is the issue with conductive paths on PCB's? Those are not generally unreliable or an impedance issue. If anything, solder joints tend to be more of an issue. But, the hand wired jobs still have the solder joints. I'm not understanding your points. Agree with KJung that something that looks nice does carry pride of ownership. But, don't understand your criticism of the PCB stuff.

 

[Passinwind]

When was the last time you played through a vintage hand wired amp?

Have you ever played through a Hiwatt? A Fender Dual Showman, A Sunn 200S, A Blue Line SVT?
A vintage V-4, B-15 or B-18?

A vintage V-4B with PCB mounted tube sockets? Why yes, I have.

 

[HolmeBass]

I don't think there is any problem at all with the new amp technology. Really. I came from Eden and Mesa and the last round of Genz Benz amps (ShuttleMax 9.2 and Streamliner 900) have plenty of authority! They are a little quiet for a "900 W @ 4 ohms" amp but super-loud for a "750 W @ 4 ohms" but more to the point, they sound great and certainly don't lack punch. The Streamliner 900 is the closest to a tube-amp feel and response of any solid-state hybrid amp I've ever tried by a long shot. Both of those GB amps are awesome.

I will echo another poster and note that the biggest gains in fidelity and weight loss have definitely come on the cabinet side of things, but most traditional medium and large scale MI companies have not yet offered truly high-tech cabinet designs. You have to go with Bergantino, Barefaced, LDS, Acme, and the fEARful/Fearless lines to really find the payoff there, and it is a large payoff.

 

[FFTT]

I don't consider tube mounted PCBs to be the best build practice in any amp.

A V-4 is a cool very clean tube/ hybrid PCB amp, but working on one looks like a nightmare.
When something is difficult to work on, you pay more time in labor. If you melt a board, the cost to
replace the board in parts and materials can easily exceed the value of the amp.

A vintage V-4B with PCB mounted tube sockets? Why yes, I have.

 

[CL400Peavey]

The point is to show the difference in build quality, layout, execution, serviceability, and overall component quality.

There's a horrendous amount of cheap crap being sold to people who don't know any better.

The greater majority of PCB's builds I've show use every possible cost cutting measure to build them cheaper at a greater
profit margin. Some are sinfully overpriced.

If you grasp anything from what I've said, take a closer look before you plunk down your hard earned money.

How does one judge the quality of components based upon simply viewing them?

 

[mambo4]

From those of us who have designed both linear amps with traditional line frequency power supplies, linear amps with switchmode power supplies AND class D amps, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why one has to sound "more authoritative" than another IF they are designed to the same target performance goals.

I trust Aged Horse, because I have a GB streamliner 900 and the proof is definitely in that pudding.

 

[FFTT]

How does one judge the quality of components based upon simply viewing them?

You can see, thin boards, thin traces, PCB mounted tubes, import caps and filters, plastic jacks and switches, small import transformers, and general layout to see if an amp is going to be a nightmare to maintain.

I stay away from the stuff that looks like a Chinese toaster oven and if I wanted a computer P/C to be my amplifier, I might as well just go amp sims, right?

 

[Passinwind]

I don't consider tube mounted PCBs to be the best build practice in any amp.

A V-4 is a cool very clean tube/ hybrid PCB amp, but working on one looks like a nightmare.

As always, the Devil's in the details. I'm equally comfortable repairing turret boards, eyelets, hybrid PCB w/ flying leads, full PCB, and to a lesser extent, SMT. Same with my own builds, although I haven't gotten to SMT just yet. I see it as the way forward though, and I'm too old to want to keep looking back. We all have our fetishes, enjoy yours.