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Old School vs. New School Amplification
- Thread starter jazztonebass
- Start date
just the way the circuit is designed and the values & slight variables of the components in the circuit.
It's just a term I use, but I suppose it depends on your settings and which speakers you're running through.
Comes out mostly with round wounds.
I know what I mean even if I'm failing to explain it properly.
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
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- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
It's also nothing like the holy grail for every bass player either. Personally, if I dig in all I want is a louder representation, not a sound made grindier or compressed in any way by my amp.
Class A/B tube amps will still reveal plenty of touch dynamics, but uber simple class A, is still by far the most touch sensitive.
Try to play clean through a Fender Champ.
It is very difficult unless you lower the gain, lower guitar volume or play Very gently.
There is no real headroom, the response to a harder attack is immediate taking you into crunch or very aggressive overdrive.
Try to play clean through a Fender Champ.
It is very difficult unless you lower the gain, lower guitar volume or play Very gently.
There is no real headroom, the response to a harder attack is immediate taking you into crunch or very aggressive overdrive.
Again, none of that is unique to class A. It is attainable with a 100% solid state signal.
Additionally, it may not even be desirable for a bass player.
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Oh yes they do. Bink, Bink, Bink.... If they were hand wired you wouldn't have that problem. SVT's... Heavy and Binky.
it would be boring if we all agreed on this. Most players are happy with a small, light amp that sounds good and can drive their speakers to suitably loud levels. Some of us have a general rule of not shopping at mass-market merchandisers; we prefer to buy from small shop craftsmen. And when a craftsman is building very small quantities, with numerous custom modifications, then PCB just loses many of its advantages. And for those of you who do not go gaga over the wiring of an old Hi Watt, try to understand that some of us consider that wiring layout every bit as impressive as the bodywork on a '65 Buick Riviera. Some of us will never be happy with a mass market, assembly line amplifier product. Some of us only care if that product produces a decent tone at a respectable volume. Neither side will ever convince the other. I fall squarely on the side of instruments built by a small company, hand crafted by highly skilled and well paid workers. Others shop at a place called Wal Mart. Some get up early to go to Farmer's Markets, others, including some who could afford the Four Seasons, actually prefer McDonalds. Different strokes, etc.
Now that I've gotten everyone all friendly, I'll say that I don't understand how anyone that has stood in front of an old (or old style) tube amp on 11 can honestly say that even the best modern amps offer the same touch sensitivity / feedback / ability to "play the amp" as the well know classics? Are some very good? yeah. Do they come close to a Les Paul / JTM 45 in a masters hands on a small stage when the amp is always right on the edge, constantly threatening to take us all over the cliff into a deafening feedback squawl, but in the right hands, never crossing that line. Just riding that knife edge line of crunch, sustain, a bit of compression... and sorry, no high gain master volume, single tube product comes anywhere close to the real thing. It just don't. Mr. FFTT has taken a lot of heat here, and I may not agree with everything he said, but when I buy an amp, I look for a lot of the same features as the ones he seems to favor. Tubes attached to a PCB - did that once, never again. Amps made by workers making $3hr, not a chance. I grew up in one of those post-WW2 suburban neighborhoods, where everyone's father had typically less than a high school education, but they all owned beautiful homes, two cars and sent their kids to college, courtesy of well paid, union jobs. That time may have passed in America, but I'm not going to help the decline accelerate in mad race to the bottom.
Now that I've gotten everyone all friendly, I'll say that I don't understand how anyone that has stood in front of an old (or old style) tube amp on 11 can honestly say that even the best modern amps offer the same touch sensitivity / feedback / ability to "play the amp" as the well know classics? Are some very good? yeah. Do they come close to a Les Paul / JTM 45 in a masters hands on a small stage when the amp is always right on the edge, constantly threatening to take us all over the cliff into a deafening feedback squawl, but in the right hands, never crossing that line. Just riding that knife edge line of crunch, sustain, a bit of compression... and sorry, no high gain master volume, single tube product comes anywhere close to the real thing. It just don't. Mr. FFTT has taken a lot of heat here, and I may not agree with everything he said, but when I buy an amp, I look for a lot of the same features as the ones he seems to favor. Tubes attached to a PCB - did that once, never again. Amps made by workers making $3hr, not a chance. I grew up in one of those post-WW2 suburban neighborhoods, where everyone's father had typically less than a high school education, but they all owned beautiful homes, two cars and sent their kids to college, courtesy of well paid, union jobs. That time may have passed in America, but I'm not going to help the decline accelerate in mad race to the bottom.
What you are describing sounds to me like the limitation of a very low-powered amp. Class A power stages are of necessity low power, meaning there isn't much headroom and cranking it results in overdrive. If lack of headroom is your holy grail, then any low powered amp should make you happy.
I wish I could set up a blind test for you and a bunch of my gear. I bet you a penny you dont pick out all tube vs full solid state.
Additionally I am not saying SS or any particular topology is better than another. Just pointing out that when it comes to amps, there is no "best".
Actually if I switch hats here (I'm also an amp tech to guitarists on the side), what FFT is talking about in that quote, is a well-known attribute of some of the old cathode-bias guitar amps.
The tweed Deluxe had the same heavily-compressed feel as a Champ, even though it had two 6V6 power tubes running at 18 watts. The circuit isn't true class A, but Cathode Bias gives it the same ability to go from semi-clean to quite dirty, without much of an increase in output level.
As others have pointed out, that's magic to a guitarist who likes to ride the volume knob, but of limited interest to most bass players.
Like CL400Peavey, the last thing I want on the gig or in the studio, is a low-powered all-tube bass amp. I used to play weddings with them, and turned my back on them in the late 70's, expressly because I wanted more clean headroom and less compression.
My experience doesn't make old-school tube amps any less desirable for those who want that sound/look/feel, though.
My Bad Cat Hot Cat 100R is 4XEL34's Class A Cathode Biased.
So is the Hot Cat 30.
Matchless Amps are built that way too.
I would consider the Ampeg B15N, at 25 watts and all tubes, a low powered bass amp, which seems to be pretty much a studio staple. I'm confused.
Cathode Biased = that's how they get that "chime"! But, I don't know about a matchless being class A. Seems like a DC30 is A/B.
You have a reference to you're Peavy and all I have for a comparative reference to your amp is my Mark III.
You may have tried tube amps, but which ones, at what volume, through what speakers, playing what bass?
If not for insane logistics it would be a blast to have a bass amp event, but no one comes to the Washington D.C. area much.
You may have tried tube amps, but which ones, at what volume, through what speakers, playing what bass?
If not for insane logistics it would be a blast to have a bass amp event, but no one comes to the Washington D.C. area much.
