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Old School vs. New School Amplification

#541
Bob Lee (QSC) said:
Pat always maintained an interest in guitar amps, and even before he semi-retired from QSC he was toying around with some guitar amp designs. He did a limited run of amps, called the Quilter Slantmaster 50, to celebrate QSC's 40 years (I bought one of them). And then when he did semi-retire, he started Quilter Labs, designing guitar amps with a lot more knowledge and experience and resources than he had in 1968. And he's really having a blast at it, as the YouTube videos will show. I enjoy dropping by over there now and then and seeing what's going on.

I believe Robert Randolph is using one of the QL Steelaire amps. Allan Holdsworth, Pokey LaFarge, and a whole bunch of others are playing QL, too. It's the end of the day and I'm too tired to remember more. ;)
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I appreciated the fact that Pat chose not to use those old, large Bakelite "oven knobs" this time around.

It's amazing how much we learn with a few decades of experience eh?
 
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#542
jazztonebass said:
I am returning to the world of amplified electric bass after many years. My last rig, years ago, was a Alembic F1X, a Crest CA9, into various 4x10's and 1x15's. Heavy rig but thunderous.

As I survey the field and consider the movement toward lighter rigs that utilize class D micro amps and Neo drivers, I wonder if there are any sonic sacrifices for the sake of portability with this approach. Can the class D amps like Pumas, and Tone Hammers achieve the punch and feel of the lead sleds?

I want to believe!
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#543
To me regardless of math and on paper perfection newer generally sounds inferior. 95% of the time in my experience. I prefer old school. Why is that? If it ain't tube (don't care if tube A or AB or Z) I want something like a GK 800RB or an Acoustic 270/370. Is this only because of great design? Why does class d sound like it can't compete? I just sat with 2 GK amps one a class d 800W thing and an older 800RB. The old RB embarrassed the new one handily. So thanks to iPods and Protools are our ears just used to musical turds? I just don't get all the apologies for under performing goods.
I do own a class d hifi that is killer though, go figure.
 
#544
catgut said:
To me regardless of math and on paper perfection newer generally sounds inferior. 95% of the time in my experience. I prefer old school. Why is that? If it ain't tube (don't care if tube A or AB or Z) I want something like a GK 800RB or an Acoustic 270/370. Is this only because of great design? Why does class d sound like it can't compete? I just sat with 2 GK amps one a class d 800W thing and an older 800RB. The old RB embarrassed the new one handily. So thanks to iPods and Protools are our ears just used to musical turds? I just don't get all the apologies for under performing goods.
I do own a class d hifi that is killer though, go figure.
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IMO, general approaches to bass amps have changed and evolved over the years, as have tastes. It may be that you happen to like an older school preamp voicing rather than something that's generally more popular now. If you took the 800RB preamp into a class D power amp, you might find that you really this what the preamp brings to the table rather than attributing it to the power amp. This is more along the lines of what I have learned over the years. Have you tried the MB Fusion? That may be closer to your partcular voicing preferences in GK's line.
 
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#546
agedhorse said:
IMO, general approaches to bass amps have changed and evolved over the years, as have tastes. It may be that you happen to like an older school preamp voicing rather than something that's generally more popular now. If you took the 800RB preamp into a class D power amp, you might find that you really this what the preamp brings to the table rather than attributing it to the power amp. This is more along the lines of what I have learned over the years. Have you tried the MB Fusion? That may be closer to your partcular voicing preferences in GK's line.
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You may be right on the money 'horse. I'm one of those stick with what works for a decade consumers. I like a little dirt (even use the D-180 voiced 2nd input on my 400+) and I generally can't get myself to like the sound of a Tobias or similar into a DI flat tone SS amp. Too much fret noise and klank and I don't know what. Is that the sound that is 'more popular' now? I could say that I will check out the fusion and I may like it but I am pretty happy with my Mesa (ironically that WAS my attempt at getting more modern);) If something blows out including my back and love of tube power sections I will look at the Fusion.
 
#547
catgut said:
You may be right on the money 'horse. I'm one of those stick with what works for a decade consumers. I like a little dirt (even use the D-180 voiced 2nd input on my 400+) and I generally can't get myself to like the sound of a Tobias or similar into a DI flat tone SS amp. Too much fret noise and klank and I don't know what. Is that the sound that is 'more popular' now? I could say that I will check out the fusion and I may like it but I am pretty happy with my Mesa (ironically that WAS my attempt at getting more modern);) If something blows out including my back and love of tube power sections I will look at the Fusion.
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The best part of being a bass player today is that there are a wide variety of quality products to choose from, representing such a wide range of characteristics such as voicing, power levels, size and weight.
 
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#548
FFTT said:
both Bad Cat and Matchless describe their higher gain builds as being
Class A Cathode Biased or having a Class A front end.
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FFTT said:
the Bad Cat Hot Cat 100R is cathode biased with a class A front end.
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I hope that Bad Cat and Matchless don't use "class A front end" as some kind of selling point. Every instrument amp that I've ever seen had a "class A front end". It's the simplest and by far the most common type of audio preamp.

Reid
 
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#549
FFTT said:
I am not a tech or EE and I've made that clear.
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Indeed you have. You made that clear before you told us.

What is most astonishing is your absolute conviction in areas you are obviously not qualified in - even in the face of rebuttals from people who understand and actually design the gear.

Self-confidence is a wonderful thing but even better is the ability to recognize your own limitations. I don't often come across this kind of blind, uninformed and dogmatic attitude in everyday life and wonder if it's an internet thing, an American thing, a bass player thing, or if it's simply just a weird coincidence that TB is so full of it.

I'm sure you are the world's leading authority on what you like. Where you go wrong is in stepping into the foreign field of electronic engineering.
 
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#550
jnewmark said:
I would consider the Ampeg B15N, at 25 watts and all tubes, a low powered bass amp, which seems to be pretty much a studio staple. I'm confused.
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To clarify my previous comment, B15's have no relation to the guitar amps that FFFT and others have been talking about through much of this thread. They have a fixed-bias class AB power stage, and were designed all the way from the input jack to the speaker output to give a cleaner and more refined sound than the buzz bombs that are generally favoured by guitar players.

Also, B15's were far from a stage or studio staple by the time I was stepping out as a working bassist in the mid 70's. Wrong era...


Sent from my iPad using TalkBass
 
#551
Fftt. I would like to very respectfully say aged horse and Bob Lee have been around here for a very long time and have provided us a ridiculous amount of education. Please take a moment to step back from the debate and understand this. Aged horse in particular is not arguing with you he's providing much needed clarity.

All the best


Pete
 
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#554
agedhorse said:
I've also built some pretty impressive class A based oscillators, a few not on purpose either ;)
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I'm not sure what you know. I on the other hand designed a true and total Class A guitar amp called the Black Pearl. Oh wait.......you designed it. Oh.....and it was cathode biased now that I think of it. Well.....blindfolded it sounded really good.
 
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#556
e
steve_rolfeca said:
To clarify my previous comment, B15's have no relation to the guitar amps that FFFT and others have been talking about through much of this thread. They have a fixed-bias class AB power stage, and were designed all the way from the input jack to the speaker output to give a cleaner and more refined sound than the buzz bombs that are generally favoured by guitar players.

Also, B15's were far from a stage or studio staple by the time I was stepping out as a working bassist in the mid 70's. Wrong era...


Sent from my iPad using TalkBass
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Ok, gotcha. But, I still see B15's in the studios where I live, and actually get a call now and then to use my '71 for recording. Haven't seen one onstage in quite awhile though, unless Jimmy posts one here !
 
#557
agedhorse said:
From those of us who have designed both linear amps with traditional line frequency power supplies, linear amps with switchmode power supplies AND class D amps, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why one has to sound "more authoritative" than another IF they are designed to the same target performance goals.

While there certainly are examples that support this myth, IMO this "heavy amps = better low end" myth really need to move on in the bass guitar world as it has years ago in the pro audio world. I can't think of a single amp these days used for sub in the touriong pro audio world that uses ANYTHING but switchmode power supplies AND class D. This is in an industry where cost is not an objection, nor is weight (IF it really impacted performance). In fact, for low frequency amplification class D offeres some significant low frequency performance advantages that can not be had with calss AB/G/H topologies.

... And yes, it's hard for me to admit this. I spent most of my professional career designing high powered linear power amps (pro audio and bass guitar world) with traditional power supplies. There is a certain comfort factor with traditional technology, but the new technology done right is really a significant improvement all around. I have done more controlled listening tests on this specific subject than probably all but a select few on TB (and you guys know who you are) and any differences are not statisticly significant nor are they repeatable under properly controlled conditions where the switching can not be anticipated. This is the advantage of double-blind testing, it takes the human "want to alter the outcome" factor out of the equation.
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I think the problem is in the language used to describe music and sonic differences.

Big iron amps have a bigger bottom end? No, I agree with you there. They do, however, have a different sound and feel. Tube sag is a reality, and I've never heard an SMPS amp that sounds like a big iron tube amp.
 
#560
To the OP - I guess the only way you are going to know your answer is to try a few of the new offerings out for yourself. There are plenty of big name heavy hitters in the industry using the new stuff with great success. Personally, I think the chances are high that you will find something that will work for your sonic needs and don't require a road crew to move but obviously everyones ears are different.
 

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