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Passive-aggressive behavior
- Thread starter LBS-bass
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Please pardon that I have not read all the posts and may say something incredibly redundant or irrelevant. But…
It’s already a him-or-you situation. People don’t change, and this this guy seems less capable of self awareness than most. What caused this situation doesn’t matter much and can’t be undone, but this bloke has already made you redundant. So, it’s time for you to decide if it’s worth it to stick around and for the other members to decide which of you better furthers their goals.
I’d approach the defacto second BL — or all the other members — and ask them what they want. The answer might be a “sorry, we’re sticking with the other guy.” Or I’d just resign. Then again, if you really are the band leader, fire this tool.
I’ve never experienced that band relationships improve. At best there is tolerance enforced only by the threat of mutually assured destruction.
It’s already a him-or-you situation. People don’t change, and this this guy seems less capable of self awareness than most. What caused this situation doesn’t matter much and can’t be undone, but this bloke has already made you redundant. So, it’s time for you to decide if it’s worth it to stick around and for the other members to decide which of you better furthers their goals.
I’d approach the defacto second BL — or all the other members — and ask them what they want. The answer might be a “sorry, we’re sticking with the other guy.” Or I’d just resign. Then again, if you really are the band leader, fire this tool.
I’ve never experienced that band relationships improve. At best there is tolerance enforced only by the threat of mutually assured destruction.
IME, most people, and musicians especially, are confrontation-averse. We just want negativity to go away, by itself, even when the real solution is for it to be assertively shown the door...
It has certainly been feeling like one as of late. For the most part everyone is great, we all do our work, come to rehearsal prepared, everyone plays well on gig nights, no one overtly creating drama. About the only "issue" we have is that we've recently brought in a new player who is very positive and enthusiastic, but a little uninitiated and inexperienced around how we do things and why we do them that way. But she's smart and she's learning and she works hard. Other than that, it's just the usual scheduling problems with a few of us in multiple bands. Those get worked out in a reasonable way; no one in the band needs to rehearse weekly and none of them need any hand holding from a musicianship perspective; they are stellar players.This whole thing is a ticking drama-bomb.
They are quiet because no one wants to be the one who rocks the boat. Neither do I, though I am the one that will speak up when difficult issues need to be dealt with.
So, listening to myself say all that I conclude that things have been a bit too easy for them for a bit too long.
This.
I've been in all kinds of situations where people saw ME as the one rocking the boat when I decided not to put up with various nonsense.
Hence, the drama-bomb I mentioned before.
This is exactly it. They are also accustomed to me being the one to address problems. They sit back and wait to hear my opinion on things when we have a question on the table about something. I have lately started saying things like "I'd like to hear how others feel about this" to encourage others to take the initiative, and the LS and drummer will then offer their thoughts. But the other guy still won't speak up.
Yep. Everyone holds it in until the one person targeted defends their position, then it's that person's fault. Been there done that, which is why this dynamic feels uncomfortably familiar.
I know it's easy to sit on the sidelines and say this, but it does seem like the two of you won't be able to coexist in the same band.
It sounds like you and I share a similar trait, at least in this regard. I have a habit of developing a feeling of ownership with bands I'm in. Always try to guide things in a direction that I believe is best for the band. Was nicknamed "Voice of reason" in one band. Eventually, that comes across in a negative way, which is not my intent. It drives me nuts when bands sit around and talk about goals and then don't do the work needed to reach those goals. I know I've parted ways with bands because of this and not always by my own choice.
This is the mindset that I take to avoid my "ownership" complex. I do my best to do my work show up, help with band gear, present the best show I can, take my pay and go home. I never do anything that would tarnish the band, but I sit back and let the band do as it will with little comment. I just treat every gig as if I'm a sub. You do tend to have more BL in your system than I do - I don't book gigs (as a rule) and I'm pretty passive regarding song choices and major decisions - so in that regard you have more "right" to take ownership of a band's decisions.
I doubt it would gain much - people are who they are - but I think you owe it to yourself to try to work it out with the person; with low expectations. If you can be happy sitting back and watching someone else bungle up your hard work, then sure, hand off the BL hat and be the bass player. But I know how hard it is to watch someone else takeover your kingdom. It my be time for the band to determine which of you is more valuable and make a decision.
There is always the option of setting up a puppet regime, where all communications are coming from the LS, but they are merely presenting your communications as theirs. This could get old real fast, but could be the dynamic that makes this disfunction work. Best of luck.
The P.A.'s behaviour is aimed at you. Wouldn't your "steeping back" response be passive aggressive behaviour that harms the band? Your earlier posts give me the impression that the band would not be getting as many gigs, and not in desirable venues. So why be a passenger in a slow trip down the drain?
As unsavoury as it is, I see "him or me" as the only option with decent long-term prospects.
As unsavoury as it is, I see "him or me" as the only option with decent long-term prospects.
No, it's not passive-aggressive to go "grey rock" on someone who is displaying those kind of tendencies. I grew up with someone like this and I could write the textbook on the do's and don't's.
His behavior is what is harming the band. He would likely be counting on my responses to feed a perception among the others that I am the one at fault, if I become defensive or otherwise confrontational. Grey-rock behavior is entirely in line with what people need to do in order to remove themselves from harm's way. It is a refusal to participate as a target.
Grey Rocking: What It Is and How To Do It (and when not to)
Some folks here really need to educate themselves on the dynamics of handling people who have narcissistic or other types of personality-disordered, toxic tendencies. It will be to your benefit to know about these things once you encounter this behavior in the workplace or somewhere else.
Also, many people do not correctly define passive-aggressive. It is a form of aggression that's hallmarked by doing nothing or being passive when action is expected or preferred. Taking protective action to remove oneself from the crosshairs is not passive-aggressive, it is an appropriate response to being targeted.
Any response I make runs the risk of changing things in a way that is not salvageable. That's why I have had such a hard time dealing with this, and also why the only answer that works for me involves the need to let go of expectations or any sense of ownership here.
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It sounds like the ultimate root of the problem here is that the essential nature of the band remains ambiguous. It started as a "democracy," a group of like-minded spirits on a collaborative musical journey. But because of her experience, energy, leadership qualities, etc., the OP has taken responsibility for being the de facto BL over time, thereby earning the right to think of it as her "labor of love". Most in the band are apparently content with this state of affairs, respecting her hard earned de facto BL status. But one chafes against it, resenting her dominance within a band that is still nominally a "democracy," even though he is of course unwilling to contribute anything to its management himself.
Since it sounds like this band really needs the OP's leadership to thrive and may implode without it, perhaps the most productive, least wasteful solution would be for there to be official recognition of the OP's efforts and an end to the pretense that it really is a "democracy." If the chafing band member is unhappy with that, he can leave--his choice.
Since it sounds like this band really needs the OP's leadership to thrive and may implode without it, perhaps the most productive, least wasteful solution would be for there to be official recognition of the OP's efforts and an end to the pretense that it really is a "democracy." If the chafing band member is unhappy with that, he can leave--his choice.
Sorry i didnt read the whole thread, but maybe one on one where he doesn't feel like he is being cornered by everyone, or has to act tough in front of everyone:
" Hey, I just wanted to double check and be sure we're cool. I've been getting a weird vibe and wanted to be sure there wasnt anything we should address."
He may not be mature enough to come out with it. Maybe he will come out with it. Maybe he will say all is good, realize you have noticed is P/A behavior, and drop it because he had a chance but chose not to get into it. Either way maybe just pointing out you have noticed, and are willing to be an adult about it, may diffuse his situation.
" Hey, I just wanted to double check and be sure we're cool. I've been getting a weird vibe and wanted to be sure there wasnt anything we should address."
He may not be mature enough to come out with it. Maybe he will come out with it. Maybe he will say all is good, realize you have noticed is P/A behavior, and drop it because he had a chance but chose not to get into it. Either way maybe just pointing out you have noticed, and are willing to be an adult about it, may diffuse his situation.
That is correct. He doesn't act out in person. In person he seems very laid-back and non-confrontational.
Our last show, which is also the last time we saw each other, was amazingly good. We had a great turnout, we all played well, our crowd was over the top with unbridled enthusiasm, just everything you could hope a show would be. We almost tripled our pay in tips.
He seemed very happy at the end of the night. Some of his friends had come out to see him, his wife was there, he'd gotten a very enthusiastic response to a song where he is the featured singer and player, etc. etc.
But here we are, back to this non-responsiveness. It's like he just wants to show up and play, which I sort of get, but it's a problem when you aren't answering availability questions. We do not do a lot of chit-chat on group text; occasionally we do, but that's not normal, so it's not like these questions are being buried. Plus, you can see when he's read them.
Do you think a statement like this, and the sentiment behind it, is in any sense helpful?
Try Billie Jean.
I'm sure you believe that's true. That's what my friend thought, too, until the no-text-back became an issue that had to be discussed in their band. That's when she found out some of the band wives didn't like the texting. Just sayin'
Is it just possible that you ARE "being too demanding or too bossy" and you don't realize it?
Some band members just won't participate in certain band things, preferring, I suppose, to let others make the decisions. I had one band mate who would not under any circumstances participate in naming the band.
Yes.
There's a lot here that's not worth responding to, since you seem to want to jump on the train of blaming me for this situation and that's fine, if you want to represent yourself that way. Lord knows there are always two or three in a crowd that will kick someone who is visibly struggling. There is a reason people say it takes courage to open up about one's problems - those kickers are always out there.
It's likely the p/a person is counting on just such a response. If I complain or start asking about his motives, he will suggest that I'm imagining the problem, or being defensive, aggressive, or a host of other things that he may believe the others will then also align themselves with in a bid to make me look bad. I've seen all this before. It's just taken me some time to realize and accept that this is the kind of person I'm dealing with here. I've been giving him the benefit of the doubt for months.
I'll just say this: A person who is bossy and aggressive does not spend months agonizing over a problem like this, second guessing herself, stressing over it and seeking out the opinions of others as to whether there's something she's doing wrong or how it should be handled. A bossy, aggressive person would handle this the way they handle everything else: by being bossy and aggressive.
There's another post here where I talk about the definition of passive-aggressive and how some folks here seem to not know what that means, or why responding to toxic behavior in a non-confrontational way that moves you out of the line of fire is not, by definition, also toxic. Suggest you read that. It could be helpful, not just for this conversation, but for other situations you might have to deal with.
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It wasn't my intention to blame you. I'm sorry if you feel that way. OTOH you do seem very defensive about this situation.
For me, the answer to this problem's obvious. To better manage this type of situation, one simply needs to have a number of ironies in the fire-the-drummer
In the real world, those keen to stand next to your fire, will be those who hold sway, under those terms, and they'll come, enthusiastically, from a number of practical directions, whenever they're needed, all things being equal — as long as the plan is sound and the groundwork's done — or they won't come at all. It isn't easy — never guaranteed — but, blatantly, there is a way.
A simple plan: remove the money. An even simpler plan: the internal fool-on-a-stool beckons, call them all out as closet-drummers and fire everyone. As I don't rely especially on music, my favorite band concept, by a country mile, is the loosely affiliated group of close, music-rich, talented, like-minded friends. Anything can stem from this sort of arrangement — joy is guaranteed — if the motivation's there, and the opportunity presents itself. And, it'll rarely, if ever, be a drudge. Not always practical.
Irons in the fire — practical
Realistic aims — sustainable 
Hope it all works out, LBS.
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